Lets discuss Jack Johnson...

Before Jackie Robinson and Althea Gibson or other black athletes who are remembered for beginning the end of segregation in the world of sports.... there was Jack Johnson.

Unlike Robinson or Gibson though, Johnson didn't conduct himself - or act in a manner condusive to - in a way that appealed to the open minded members of the white establishment; so that even though he "proved" that a black could be a great HW champion, his behavior was so scandalous that it wasn't until Joe Louis that the perception of blacks in boxing started to change, as it regards the natural ability of blacks to be great fighters at the highest level.

 

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You offer too many excuses for Johnson. O’Brien did capitalize on his chance. He got the better of the fight according to some. The fight was ruled a ND or if you prefer a draw. If Johnson wanted to clear up this blemish on his record, he gives O’Brien a re-match. That did not happen.

 

Johnson is a tough one to gauge, because he'd have been forced to make so many adjustments to compete in the modern era. I suspect that today's jumbo heavies would make his life very difficult, because he was a methodical, grinder of a fighter, and that personality trait is the same whether you're talking 1907 or 2007.

On the other hand, he was much more able to adapt than the existing films indicate, at least if the various testimonies can be believed. But I'd certainly favor Ali over him, and Lewis as well.

I wish Johnson had fought Langford one more time, once Sam had gained weight. If you read Unforgiveable Blackness (a must-read if you're interested in Johnson, or the plight of the black fighter generally during that era), it's implied that Johnson had more respect/fear for Langford than anyone else he faced. The fact that those two engaged in a freestyle brawl or two adds to the lore.

 

I agree with ChrisPontious in his assesment of Johnson. There was'nt much combination punching back in Johnson's day so Jack's style was well suited for the times. Against a more modern type of HW like an Ali or Holmes, Jack would have to tweak his defense abit. The punches would be coming in bunches and fast as well, not one at a time and telegraphed either. Johnson could block the first punch but could he block the 2nd, 3rd and 4th one as well? Could he handle a double jab follwed by a straight right/left hook combo from a big fast man like Ali or Holmes or a prime Holyfield? Boxing was pretty much in it's infancy in Johnson's day and there were'nt as many good quality big men as there were in say Ali's time. Boxing back then was'nt that far removed from the bare knuckle era. It was still evolving so a man like Johnson was head and shoulders above the rest. I don't think that would be the case today. More quality big men. Still with his natural ability and talent, Jack could do very well with a little "upgrade" in technique.

 

I'd very much agree with these summaries along with a certain proportion of what McGrain stated in his initial post. I rate Johnson at about #9 All-Time overall, although I'd argue he'd rank higher as a head-to-head force. Here's my stylistic summary (using personal list of Top 15 Heavyweights):

I'd favour Johnson to beat:

Marciano
Dempsey
Patterson
Jeffries

50/50 fight:

Foreman
Holyfield
Frazier
Bowe
Liston

I'd tip the following to beat Johnson*:

Ali
Tyson
Louis
Lewis
Holmes



*Although few would have an easy night in doing so. Thoughts?

 

Yeah, sure. Pick fights when Johnson was shot to prove a point, great strategy.

 

Did you miss my points? A quick re-hash.

How about Choynski, Griffin, and Hart. All three beat Jack Johnson.

Or how about O'brien according to the papers and articles I posted getting the better of a prime Johnson? Or Jack Johnson getting lucky to get a draw vs Jim Johnson

Or Johnson flat out ducking and turning down $50,000 offers to fight the best competition out there.

Or the crude Ketchel flooring Johnson to the point where he had to brace himself to get up?

Now please insert your excuses because Jack Johnson was not " shot " in any of these fights. He simply was not that good.

 

I remember a old bbc boxing video,of a young tyson watching the old greats,and what shocked me was,tyson laughed at the footage of johnson,said he was awful,and would be KOed by all of the heavys that came after him,so make of that what you will,i was kind of suprised(he did though seem to adore dempsey which i guess he kind of copied)

 

Johnson's chin was NOT that sturdy. Choynski flattened him and
he was floored and badly hurt by Philip Piersenn in an exhibition
match. He also took alot of punishment in his fights with Hank
Griffin. Great fighter with a so-so chin.



Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

I never heard of Phillip Piersen. Who was he?

I have heard of the GunBoat Smith match exibtion match. Gunboat had Johnson down and badly dazzed to the point where his manager had to jump in and save him from a KO.

 

Against Jess Willard, a grossly out of shape Jack Johnson looked like the closest thing I've seen to a heavyweight version of Floyd Mayweather.

He kept his guard low, made Willard shoot out the jab and used his reflexes to evade the punch, and launch a counterpunch/combination in return.

He was a master of using distance/range as a defensive weapon, much like Mayweather.

Willard outmuscled Johnson on the inside, but Johnson was still dominant here.

He clearly won the boxing match, although he lost the endurance contest.

Most of his other fights showcase his superb infighting abilities against fighters of smaller stature, but his dominance even in these situations should not be ignored (in many ways the smaller fighter has advantages on the inside), nor should the lack of footage of Johnson against larger opponents.

 

I'm pretty sure the JimJohnson-Jack Johnson decision was rendered by one offical, the referee.

 

I am sure it was by three judges, which of coruse the promoter ( ahem Jack Johnson ) picked. One judge gave the fight to Jim " battling " Johnson, the other two were not sure what to do, and rulled it a draw.

After the fight there was debate as to who the champion was.