Let's face it - Duran was the most complete, ever

Ya....no one ever mentions No mas when talking about Duran......ever!!

 

"Manassa listed a number of categories, but surely mental strength and bravery should be included when assessing any great fighter (indeed, any great sportsman/woman)."

I would say Duran proved his mental strength and bravery in many other contests.

 

Nor would I say Duran was an 8-10 with regard to boxing, counterpunching, combination punching, and the like. Although he was obviously very good at that, those scores should be reversed for the great pure boxers/counterpunchers like Benitez, Sanchez, Whitaker, Gavilan, etc., etc.

I disagree there - I think Monzon ranks well among the most complete fighters in history, especially during his early title reign. IMO, Monzon's title-winning effort against Benvenuti is one of the most complete single performances I've ever seen.

 

I actually would consider this guy a better candidate for "most complete" than Duran.

 

Flea Man - That may be so, but I just feel that the "no mas" episode gets inappropriately overlooked by some when assessing Duran, principally, I believe by those trying to promote Duran's greatness, i.e. die-hard Duran fans.

When assessing the greatness of a fighter, I think ALL the evidence/attributes need to be included, not just the evidence/attributes that promote the cause of "their man".

For what it's worth, it appeared to me that Leonard found a flaw in Duran's mental armour on their second fight. Whichever way you look at it, Duran did not "go out on his shield" in this fight. For me, this is a negative point when assessing Duran's greatness.

 

Agreed.

In fact, I'd go a step further and say he was actually physically stronger above LW than he had been within the weight. Notice against a genuinely strong, aggressive LW like Hector Thomspon, that Thompson appears to outmuscle Duran and convince him to fight off the back foot to win the fight, whereas against a similarly strong WW in Palomino, Duran is the one who did the muscling and bullying in that fight.

 

Horrible post. Think before you post.

 

I'd say Palomino was outfought, but not outmuscled. It was clear as day to me that Palomino was the physically stronger, as he walked Duran to the ropes from a clinch on a number of occassions.

He couldn't cope with the handspeed, and Duran exploited that with feints to no end, moreso than Duran bullied him.

 

I'd say that too.

 

Duran outsmarted him in close though, which negated Palomino's superior strength and left hook to the body. Duran tied him up when he needed to, made the right moved and completely nullified him. I would say he was as strong as Palomino on that night, and they both pushed each other back at different times.

 

They stand up quite well if we cut Duran's career off after the DeJesus unification bout. He'd already built a legacy as arguably the greatest lightweight of all-time well before any of the Fab 4 nonsense. Except, Duran didn't settle for a legacy defined at Lightweight as Hagler did @ 160. No, he went and beat the consensus #2 Welterweight of all-time on top of it. As well as a victories over Palomino, Cuevas, Moore and Barkley. In the case of the latter two, as a serious underdog.

 

i can agree that Duran can be said to have greater accomplishments that even hagler.
i just meant that positing that Hagler would have to beat guys like Michael Spinks to compare is going too far.

as i said, Duran's jump from 135 to 147 is over-stated. he was a big guy for lightweight by the time he entered his mid-late-20s.
its not the same as the 5'9, well-muscled 158 pound hagler at 32 years old age being expected to "become" a light-heavyweight. hagler didn't "settle for" middleweight ; he WAS a middleweight.

as for ray leonard being #2 welter of all-time, i dont believe so. certainly not when he faced Duran the first time.

 

what Duran lacks is great wins over fellow great fighters. He is great, but not the most complete ever. Had he been that he would have been able to do a little better than he did with Hearns,Benitez and Leonard.

 

Sl

It isn't the weight jump that impresses me. Pretty sure I've even admitted that Duran's days at 135 were about numbered due to his increasingly lax training/splurging habits and a naturally slowing metabolism. It's that a fighter already a dozen years, 72 fights deep with a legacy already sewn into the annals of boxing history and most dominant at 135 took out one of the premier welterweight talents of all-time.

And yes, Hagler was probably the definition of a natural middleweight. I can see how that came off as a knock on him, but it wasn't the intention.

 

I agree with that. Duran's greatness for me lies in his lightweight reign more than anything.
his welterweight stint is a significant extra boost (even though I think Montreal is a bit overrated).

Cool. :good