lets have a serious discussion about who is the middleweight champion

I'm saying that the WBC champion is an actual world title holder, unlike the "lineal" champion who has no literal title unless it's combined with one of the belts.

 

And where the fight is agreed to is what counts as well. So if Cotto had weighed in at 147 last night, how would that effect Canelo?

 

I don't understand what you mean by that.

 

who cares, mw is a weak division.
cotto took advantage of bumland to win a belt in another weight division

 

Well I'm sure in days gone by the middleweight champion would not have been allowed to dictate the weight at which his challengers fought.
If he refused to fight if the challenger didn't agree then he would have been stripped.
If Canelo insists GGG comes in at 155 or there's no fight then he shouldn't be regarded as the champion.
I don't think though that this would bother Canelo one iota,these modern fighters are simply not bothered about titles or legacy.

 

Shadow: Only if you are trusting the ABCs. The fight was at an agreed weight to suit Miguel Cotto who has stated enough times "I am not a middleweight". People will always argue about lineage rules and to me he fought inside 154 so he is a super-welterweight, a fighter vacates when he retires or moves weight class. But I accept there are no rules and I can see how someone could view this 'messy situation' of the baton getting passed down and the middleweight lineage has been passed to a super-welterweight and on to another super-welterweight and that is just the way it is.

 

Cotto would then be a ww. How does that effect a JMW or MW Canelo? Is he now lineal MW champ, being that the fight wasn't (in your scenario) a MW fight? If Cotto is a JMW, how does it effect his opponent who signed a contract for a MW fight months ago? These things are hammered out well in advance for a reason.

Point being, No fighter is obligated to fight above the lower weightclass limit. There may be a weight minimum for fight night, in order to ensure safety, but if there is I am not aware of it.

 

If a fighter fights at 147 he is a welterweight, the other fighter is whatever weight class he fought in.

My beef about Cotto being at JMW stems more from the Geale fight, when he beat Martinez I ranked him #1 at Middleweight, but when he fought at 153.5 (v Geale) he became a JMW. It being the WBC title made no difference to how I ranked it or any other fight, ie in my set of rules all fights are treated equally and regardless of attached titles, so being a normal fight Canelo (155) fought Cotto (153.5) we would all treat that as a super-welterweight fight and rank the fighters and the result accordingly. Boxing is what it is but most fights are a couple of pounds above the weight class.

Cotto made the mess by dictating the terms of how he wanted to defend the middleweight title.

I think we all agree it is a mess.

 

So exactly what boxing authority validates the WBC title?

 

National boxing federations of Italy, France, Germany, UK, Spain, Japan, Mexico, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, China, Unites States commissions, South Africa, Switzerland and so on.

 

Certainly is. But it would be even more of a mess going your route.

You do realize Cotto isn't obligated to fight above 154 to fight in the MW division right? If he was, you think he might weigh in at +1.5 lbs to get to 155? Your scenario puts things into an even greater state of flux, where multiple weight classes can square off in the same fight.

 

Well when Miguel Cotto won the Middleweight Title from Martinez, he weighed in at 155 lbs, so that night Cotto was truly a Middleweight. Martinez weighed 158.5 lbs, also a Middleweight. That was by your definition a Middleweight Fight. That was the baton getting passed down from a real Middleweight Champ to another Middleweight.

It just so happened that Martinez had injured knees and had no movement in that fight. That wasn't Cotto’s fault, that’s still a quality win for Cotto. Martinez was a very dominant and legit Middleweight Champ before the knee injury.

I think most people think that the fully healthy Martinez that dominated that division for years could beat Cotto, but that didn’t happen, so the baton was passed down from Martinez to Cotto, at Middleweight.. to another Middleweight (Cotto) that night. The fact that Cotto weighed in under the Jr MW limit at 153.5 lbs for Canelo doesn’t have anything to do with what division that fight was in. It was in the Middleweight division for the MW Title, at the weight limit that Cotto selected.

 

In my rules he is a JMW. WBC, Lineal stuff does not make any difference it is all just a fight. As soon as a fighter crosses a lighter category that is where he gets rated. People have different rules and there are no definitive rules. The IWBR was set up to rank every fighter in every weight class on a man who beat the man basis, so to get a ranking you had to beat someone else ranked. Quite often fighters are assigned to different divisions from the same fight though rarely would it occur in an elite fight.

 

You are introducing sanction bodies rules, mine are just what they weigh but yeah that does happen that two fighters fight and they go into different weight classes. 95% of all fights I record are outside the strict weight class, I tend to keep JMWs in that division up to 158 but I will move them if they request. It is one of the few areas where an opinion comes into it which division I rank somebody. Sometimes I will get it wrong. If I was fixed on the weight classes and moved everyone that boxed 4 ounces or more to the next weight class other than Heavyweight the ratings would look stupid.

 

You track them yourself? It sounds interesting. What is your objective in doing so?
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