Let's settle it once and for good. Do you think Wilder has a legitimate body of work for a champion?

I'm referring to that measuring stick being used by a poster starting with "neet".

 

Not really Wilder's opponents have been criticized and rightly so and hard to say they were underrated. Most were shot and well past their best.

Ruiz isn't a a puncher and there are still many question marks over how good he is. Liakhovich was sparked by an ancient Briggs in a snoozefest in 2006 but years later is still a top line fighter? No, not at all. He hasn't beaten anyone of note for years. That's not an underated win for Wilder.

Adamek was out of his best division and well past his best when Molina beat him I wouldn't read much into that at all.
AJ's list of wins has aged terribly - Molina at that point was 25-3 but was seen as a unspectacular opponent who AJ was expected to be easily. Which he did. Adamek was an elite cruiser in his prime. Terrific fighter but in the later part of his heavy career he wasn't impressive. I think he'd lost 3 of his last 4 around the time he fought Molina and Molina has himself proved to a less than impressive fighter as his career has gone. Stopping Eric Molina isn't an impressive win.

Washington as a high level journyman - fine.... But we are talking about Wilder being WBC champion. The odd low level fighter in a run of defenses is probably to be expected with boxing politics. But you can't try and defend his list of wins with Washington.

Why not fight Whyte, Parker, Ruiz, hell Jennings would have been better than some- plenty of choice of opposition. So yes there were better opponents out there and he should have got in the ring with some of them.

From the Liakhovich fight on wards Wilders opposition for a top belt holder is really poor. The 2nd Stiverne fight was nonsense. He then goes on to fight undefeated Ortiz and eventually Fury and I give him credit there but his opposition is dire his wins aren't under rated they are judged by the majority to be mainly weak and the odds stacked in his favour against old, over weight has beens.

 

Of course he would have done. Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

"Not really Wilder's opponents have been criticized and rightly so"

Arguably the stock of all of Wilder's title run opponents has risen since he beat them, plus a few others.

"Most were shot and well past their best"

Prime/near prime: Stiverne 1, Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, debatable Arreola, Washington, debatable Ortiz 1, Fury, Breazeale, Fury, Fury

Past prime/well past prime: Stiverne 2, Ortiz 2

"Ruiz isn't a a puncher and there are still many question marks over how good he is"

Indeed, so relative to AJ's opponents at least Wilder's have been underrated. Non-puncher Ruiz KO'd AJ but performed poorly against Wilder opponents Morales, Liakhovich and Arreola (who Stiverne beat twice emphatically) when all three had more miles on the clock.

"Liakhovich was sparked by an ancient Briggs"

A post-Brewster come from behind KO yes and two years later this "ancient" Briggs was a Vitali title challenger. Hmm...

"Adamek was out of his best division and well past his best when Molina beat him"

Maybe Usyk's outside his best division, he's still an elite fighter. Adamek's not on that level but the principle holds. Adamek was well past his best but so what? I'm not claiming that Molina was as good as prime Adamek. Tomasz was favoured and at home when Molina KO'd him. Molina's stock rightly rose as a result.

"Why not fight Whyte, Parker, Ruiz"

Whyte and Parker had different promoters and Ruiz was considered one of the lesser HW's in PBC's stable before he destroyed AJ, below Kownacki and well below Ortiz. There is an unfounded assumption that these Chisora level fighters are better than Stiverne, Duhaupas and Ortiz x2.

"The 2nd Stiverne fight was nonsense."

It was silly but it was about "righting the wrong" of going the distance the first time, so that Wilder could stop every opponent he'd faced. Even post-Wilder 1 Stiverne had more left in the tank than people thought as we went on to see against Joyce.

"He then goes on to fight undefeated Ortiz and eventually Fury and I give him credit there but his opposition is dire"

In his last 6 fights he's fought Ortiz, Fury, Breazeale, Ortiz, Fury, Fury. Ortiz was 5th and 6th Ring ranked, Fury was 7th, 1st and 1st. His opposition has been extremely strong since 2018, having left a lot to be desired before that.

 

And again it doesn't matter if Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, were prime they were crap opponents and you have listed 8 opponents there from a 40+ fight career not exactly a strong argument that fighters were past it. Stiverne 2, Arreloa is past it lost 3 of his last 5. Harrison. SL, Beck etc..

You also seem to be confusing fights being made for $$ ala Briggs harassing and calling out the Klits at every opportunity to fights that actually mean something to how strong a list of wins is and how that fighter will be viewed. Briggs was 4 years on for a terrible performance against SL where he barely through a punch. He was never considered a real threat to Vitali it was just chance to shut up a mouth for Klits.

Wilder's competition has improved since 2018 i agree there but it was an exceptionally low bar to start with.

I hope he comes back because Whyte, AJ, Ruiz etc can all be fun fights for Wilder and his career would look better for beating some or all of them.

 

(Not in order)
Usyk
Joshua
Ruiz
Fury
Parker
Whyte
Pulev

Eh, I guess on resume I would rank him 8th. Still, pretty bad for how much his fans hype him up.

 

"it doesn't matter if Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, were prime they were crap opponents"

Molina got a bad reputation for all of the dives he took but when he turned up to fight he wasn't that bad; KO'd Adamek as underdog away and as I say, was good enough to go on to be an AJ title challenger.

Southpaw mover Szpilka beat a fresher Adamek than Molina arguably in more convincing fashion and despite being badly compromised post-Wilder got a win over Wach, who went on to Whyte a hard 10 rounds at 40+.

Determined and iron chinned Duhaupas had beaten Vitali title challenger Charr as a massive underdog and KO'd a 22-0 Helenius as a big underdog in 6 in Finland, went the 12 round distance with relentless KO artist roiders Teper and Miller before and after his first KO loss to Wilder. He was definitely a higher quality opponent than green Whyte and Joey no heart Parker.

There's a huge contradiction between calling Duhaupas and Szpilka "crap" but holding up Whyte, Parker and Ruiz as worthy opponents. Ruiz's performances against Liakhovich, Johnson and Arreola suggest he's not that good, his marginal fight with Parker in NZ suggests Parker isn't that good and Parker's life and death war with Whyte suggests Whyte isn't that good.

" you have listed 8 opponents there from a 40+ fight career"

I listed every opponent from Wilder's title run and after, I wasn't going to painstakingly go through Wilder's entire record. The first 25 fights are pretty much pure knockover jobs anyway. Morales was probably the most notable as he "drew" with Martin and Mitchell, beat Cojanu, took Ruiz any many others the distance, was frequently robbed. Morales/Sconiers represented a step up, then Kelvin Price, then Stiverne, then Ortiz, then Fury.

"Arreloa is past it lost 3 of his last 5"

He could have just been unmotivated by the level of opposition he was fighting before Wilder, he certainly wasn't physically shot as years later he's going life and death with Kownacki and Ruiz.

"Briggs was 4 years on for a terrible performance against SL"

Yet many on this forum consider "beyond ancient" Briggs to be one of Vitali's best wins...

"Wilder's competition has improved since 2018 i agree there but it was an exceptionally low bar to start with."

Wilder's competition has been the best in the division since 2018, maybe the best in the sport. Stiverne and on it wasn't even "exceptionally low" relative to AJ, let alone various contenders.

"his career would look better for beating some or all of them"

Sure it would look better but it's fine at the moment. AJ's probably about to go 0-2 with Usyk, having already gone 1-1 with Ruiz. If Fury goes on to beat Usyk for undisputed, let's say in dominant fashion, Wilder's stock will only rise further. He'll go down as 2nd best of the era, even more firmly entrenched if officially 43 year old, 2 KO defeats Ortiz beats Ruiz.

 

Keep hating clown.

 

Shot and well past their best? They were?

Wilder has engaged in 13 WBC title fights. All were rated by the WBC. Six of the 13 came against Ring rated fighters ... ALL of them in the top five at the time. One being the Ring champ.

Out of the 13 fighters, 12 of them only had two losses or FEWER on their resume.

His late-sub Arreola had the worst win-loss record at 36-4-1. (You think that's bad, go back in heavyweight history and see how many champions fought challengers with much worse records.)

WBC January 2015 Ratings
http://www.boxnews.com.ua/en/ratings/WBC/All/01-2015
Bermane Stiverne (24-1-1) #Champion

WBC May 2015 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC_RATINGS_MAY_2015.pdf
Eric Molina (23-2) Rated #9

WBC August 2015 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC_RATINGS_AUGUST_2015.pdf
Johann Duhaupas (32-2) Rated #12

WBC December 2015 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC-RATINGS-DECEMBER-2015.pdf
Artur Szpilka (20-1) Rated #8 (late tuneup because #1 rated Povetkin needed more time prepare - or clear his system of PEDS)

WBC June 2016 Ratings
http://www.wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC-RATINGS-JUNE-2016.pdf
Chris Arreola (36-4-1) Rated #9 (late sub for the #1 contender Povetkin, who failed to clear his system of PEDs and blew his drug test)

WBC February 2017 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC-RATINGS-FEBRUARY-2017.pdf
Gerald Washington (18-0-1) Rated #8

WBC October 2017 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC-RATINGS-BAKU-CONVENTION-2017.pdf
Bermane Stiverne (25-2-1) Rated #1

WBC February 2018 Ratings
http://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC_RATINGS_FEBRUARY_2018.pdf
Luis Ortiz (28-0) Rated #3

WBC November 2018 Ratings
http://www.maurowbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WBC-RATINGS-NOVEMBER-2018.pdf
Tyson Fury (27-0) Rated #3

WBC May 2019 Ratings
https://wbcboxing.com/ratings/WBC-RATINGS-MAY-2019.pdf
Dominic Breazeale (20-1) Rated #4

WBC November 2019 Ratings
http://www.maurowbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/WBC-Ratings-November-2019.pdf
Luis Ortiz (31-1) Rated #3

WBC February 2020 Ratings
https://britishboxingnews.co.uk/blogs/wbc-release-their-february-2020-world-rankings
Tyson Fury (29-0-1) Rated #1

WBC August 2021 Ratings
https://wbcboxing.com/mailing/2021/ratings_pdf/WBC_Ratings_AUGUST_2021.pdf
Tyson Fury (30-0-1) #Champion

Wilder's 10 consecutive successful heavyweight title defenses is the fifth most ALL-TIME in boxing history.

You know how many fighters in BOXING HISTORY have engaged in MORE THAN 13 heavyweight title fights for ANY belt?

Joe Louis. Muhammad Ali. Larry Holmes. The Klitschko brothers. Lennox Lewis. Evander Holyfield. Mike Tyson. Tommy Burns. And I believe that's it.

Pretty much everyone else takes a backseat when it comes to being a successful defending champion.

Looks like about 80 of you are morons.

 

I don't care if Wilder has 26 defence if the likes of Szpilka are being touted as top class opponents He got his teeth pushed in by an ancient Chisora. Arreola isn't a bad fighter but when you look at his record prior to Wilder where he was starting to drop fights it's clear that he wasn't a a top contender anymore. He's a shop worn name. Look past the record and who the guys are beating and how. You don't seem to be doing that.
Pevetkin drugs issues don't absolve Wilder of not stepping up in class sooner while being a WBC "champion"
Wilder opposition is weak as hell as has been seen by what those fighters have gone on to do since

Stiverne1, Fury, Ortiz, even an unbeaten Washington I don't have an issues with but Washington has never been a top class heavy.

It's weak opposition and hard to even defend. Quoting Ranking means little as they are so easily manufactured.

 

Citing a governing body rankings (in particular the WBC)?

These ranking regular have extremely poor low level boxers for example at present;


Wallin, Zhang, Mckean, Demirezen, Franklin,, Lerena, Scott and Browne are currently ranked amongst top 15.

I mean De Mori and Gjergjaj were ranked in top 15 when Haye beat them. Hell Xemori has been ranked in the top 15 in past year!

There's 8 or so guys who clearly have better records of wins over opponents than Wilder.

 

You're citing the WBO Ratings, MORON!

Wilder was the WBC Champion. He's supposed to fight WBC rated fighters ... which he did IN EVERY DEFENSE.

And the current WBC ratings are the only one that recognize the ACTUAL World Champion.

And eight men in the WBC's ratings are also in the RING top 10. (Fury, Wilder, Joyce, Whyte, Sanchez, Ruiz, Ortiz, Parker).

Which other org can say the same? NONE of them.

You're an idiot.

 

If you want to go through the list of bad opponents other champs in history have faced, we can certainly do that.

A 20-1 Artur Spzilka would not come REMOTELY close to being among the worst.

Joe King Roman. Terry Daniels. Dave Zyglewicz. Jean Pierre Coopman. Manuel Ramos. Tom McNeeley. The list is endless.

Hell, Spzilka beat Jameel McCline, Mariusz Wach, Owen Beck and Tomasz Adamek, who all got title shots themselves. Hell, McCline got FOUR title shots with four different organizations.

Take off your hater glasses.

Wilder's resume is just fine.

 

I Citing all governing bodies (WBC have Wallin in top 15 for example).

Do you honestly believe the like Spzilka, Washington, Arreola, Stiverne (rematch), Brezeale, Molina Duhaupas, Scott etc derseved top 15 rankings at time Wilder fought them?

Everyone else bar you and the other Wilder fan are of opinion of no.

 

Wilder's best achievement is not losing to Fury in the first fight.
I don't think his victories over Shpilka or Washington are worth mentioning.