Lets settle the did tyson duck foreman debate

Tyson was a very young guy with a lot of speed. He was not a rythem fighter, he was looking to thread himself inside a jab and attack with two hands. His use of footwork was such that He could blindside and out-jab much taller men with much longer arms. He was turning around the opponent. Leaping from one blindside to the other. Switching stance to create openings. A spurt fighter who came forward only when there was an opening. It wasn’t a rolling, sequenced march forward.

There was nothing in any opponent that Foreman fought who ever did that.

I am pleased you make the distinction between Foreman in the 1970s compared to the slower comeback version. However, watching Foreman dishing out the chilling knockout of Cooney is a different matter to applying this to a prime MikeTyson. Holyfield and Alex Stewart were easier to hit than Tyson was and he could not dish it out on them. The levels get higher you don’t get the same results. And it’s not just a question of Tyson fitting the short crouching man that suits George either. Plenty of swarming guys were not knocked down as easily as joe Frazier was by comeback Foreman, and all were inferior to Frazier. Everett big foot Martin was a fat super middleweight. He crowded George and never went down. Guido Trane crowded George, he even pushed George back, but was only stopped on a cut. This yo-yoIng of Frazier only applied to Joe Frazier. ....In the 1970s.

 

I really like the way you're laying your arguments out, but I just don't agree. All respect.

 

I like your style.

 

After all his birthdays landed at once with that punch against Moorer , Foreman didnt wanna fight anybody who could stand up straight .
Credit George for his achievement but he never faced a seriously relevant opponent once he had the title.

 

So did you guys ever settle that thing you could never actually settle?

 

Someone had to say it.

 

Mike would have beaten George with little problems due to hand and foot speed.. Foreman was slow as mollasses just like all you asses who are picking him to beat a live elite fighter during his comeback... Choklab explains it well

 

That claim would need to be looked at from various angles on a variety of levels. I can see where you are coming from, and where you are trying to head. In some ways you are very close and some would agree.

Leon has his own peculiar story. It might even be fair to say he was on the decline from the time the 15th bell rang against Ali. His troubles thereafter are well documented, particularly between Ali bouts.

One also has to study Ali. He was 36, barely interested and barely trained. He was miles over his normal weight a few weeks out. He was ready to be taken, like so many before and after him. Moorer was young and had just came off the best win of his life. Whilst he wasn't the greatest champ ever he sure wasn't the worst.

Yes you often whine about Foreman not beating a good contender and he shouldn't have got that title shot against Frazier etc etc etc. The fact is they got the shot and hundreds of others have too in similar circs. It's certainly not illegal. Some even take advantage of it. That's boxing and it sure ain't something to be bitter about. It helps make the sport what it is.

Foreman had previously given a good account of himself against Evander. He was also a lucrative attraction and very marketable so he had plenty of tools in place.

Ali was but Moorer not so much. He was young, undefeated and had just won the title. He was a solid fave so no-one thought he was ripe for the taking by George Foreman at least. He'd even beat your beloved Bonecrusher!!!

Moorer wasn't weak, he just wasn't overly strong. Ali was OLD.

Well lets dig deeper. Foreman had given Holyfield a very respectable challenge, beat Coetzer and realistically beat Briggs. He also beat Moorer for the lineal title. He was a genuine top 10'er for ages. I don't call that as limited as you do.

Spinks? Despite all the drugs and ridiculous partying Spinks still managed to beat geuine top 10'ers Alfredo Evangelista and Bernado Mercado to get himself another title shot so he's absolutely top 10 quality. Allied to the win even over an old Ali does this equal "limited at world level"?

 

I do find it odd that certain members look down on Foreman's performance against Holyfield. Here was an unbeaten champ (Holy) who'd end up being in the top 6 ATGs (imo), and possibly a greater fighter from an overall perspective than Foreman ever was. Foreman rocked him at various times in the fight, even showing serious stamina (in the 10th round he hit Evander so hard the latter went to his corner asking "did he knock all my teeth out?"). Even then, Holy pretty much avoided George as much as possible in the fight and after that 10th round stayed especially far away.

Foreman was a very dangerous contender, his fight against Holy more than reinforced that. Could we say the same about the much younger Thomas, Witherspoon, Dokes, Weaver...all former champs around at that time? At that period in time I see only Bowe (remember, this was pre-Holy Bowe), Holmes and MAYBE pre-Steward Lewis beating him.

 

Apart from financially ,a no win fight ,Foreman might connect and get him out of there, alternatively Tyson's handspeed might befuddle old George and put him on ***** street.If Tyson wins,"well you beat an old man",if he loses ,then its ,"fancy getting beat by an old geezer like that?" Smart to avoid the match, similar to the Frazier v Liston scenario imo.

 

Witherspoon did not want to be there it had **** all to do with Smith's effort.
Witherspoon was supposed to get $ 400,000 for the fight with Bruno ,plus $100,000 for training expenses he actually received $90,094 and all his future motivation went right out the window.Bruno received $900,000
Witherspoon was next supposed to defend his title against Tony Tubbs,tubbs pulled out with a spurious sore shoulder injury,[he was as demoralized as Witherspoon with the King management, ] King then made a deal with Bonecrusher .just crossing Tubbs name out and replacing it with Smith's.
Smith had an ongoing law suit against King at the time which he agreed to drop in exchange for signing with Kings son and getting a shot.Witherspoon didnt want to fight Smith whom he had already comfortably beaten,and refused the fight. King threatened him with being frozen out,and the NYBA upheld the threat.Witherspoon was concerned he would be putting his prospective big pay day with Tyson in jeopardy.Eventually Witherspoon caved in but didn't really train for the fight.
"I didnt care.Losing meant Don was out of my life,and that was all I wanted.".Witherspoon
The fight was a debacle.Joe Spinelli a former FBI agent was asked to investigate it by the NY Governor Mario Coumo, Spinelli was the NY Inspector General.
Smith told Spinelli he was forced to employ Carl King as his manager to get in the HBO tournament and that he had to give him 33% of his purse.
Witherspoon's purse for the Smith fight was criminally shrunk, King charged him $75,594 training expenses and $28,0000 for the use of his Ohio training camp,$1000 a day instead of the customary $100 a day. Tim was supposed to get $400,000,but got a check for $ 129,000 out of that he had to pay the IRS ,and his trainer Slim Jim Don King,Robinson $30,000.King even deducted $38 for a drug test.
Two weeks after the fight Witherspoon was interviewed by Jack Newfield from whom I gleaned all this info.
Witherspoon was broke ,his phone had been cut off ,his car repossessed,he owed $500 rent and was facing eviction.
" You know I was thinking how both times I lost my title,I tried to fight Don King of the week as well as my opponent.I just couldn't do it ,it destroyed my focus."Witherspoon.
No, Smith didn't beat Witherspoon, by bullying or otherwise, Don King beat him! he ****ed him, just as he ****ed quite a few other good heavies who never reached their full potential because of that shameless blood sucker!"

 

But on paper Tim got run over hard by Smith. Frazier Foreman hard, if not even moreso.

 

Especially when that Liston fight reeks of a setup to this very day. I do understand your point though my friend.

 

Am I the only one who considered Briggs a viable contender before Foreman? Shannon was no joke.