Lets settle the did tyson duck foreman debate

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Jul 18, 2019.



  1. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    In Tyson Foreman saw Joe Frazier. A squat crouching fighter who would come to him. NOT a good idea no matter who you are. George’s best punches were his jab and right uppercut (although everything he threw was dynamite) punches that destroyed Joe early on. The right uppercut that caused the second KD IMO was one of boxing’s heaviest blows. Frazier was out until he hit the canvas.

    George also had the physical strength to manhandle anyone including Tyson. In the case of Tyson manhandle and intimidate the intimidatable.
     
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  2. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thing is this.....every boxing fan wanted to see Foreman and Tyson square off. It did not matter whether George had yet to KO Cooney or whether Foreman was a top contender or wether Tyson was champion or not. It’s a fight that the boxing public felt could be won by Foreman as they saw similarities between Tyson and Frazier and Foreman had Joe’s number. Public demand typically determines if fights are made. I can tell you that I and everyone I hung out with wanted to see the fight occur and there were many articles written by boxing writers at the time (late 80’s/early 90’s) discussing this potential battle. It would have been a mega fight.
     
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No. by the time Foreman could finally be taken seriously by the public Tyson was either in prison or Tyson was still beating higher rated contenders than Foreman was.

    It would always have been a mismatch in my view. Foreman never reached elite level at any time of the comeback. Sure Moorer was the world champ, but he was almost champ by default, Bowe and Lewis were better fighters at that moment. A number of contenders would have been favourite over Moorer then, and Foreman’s for that matter.
     
  4. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I disagree. The boxing public remembered what Foreman did to Frazier twice. There was huge public, boxing public, interest in this fight. This interest then rose to the lay public once Foreman demolished Cooney. A Tyson Foreman bout would have been a mega fight late 80’s up until Mike went to prison. Foreman would have knocked him out.....and Tyson was smart enough to understand this. George was too powerful, too smart, too physical a presence in the ring and would have intimidated Tyson like no other opponent.
     
  5. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No Moorer WAS the worlds hwt champion when Foreman knocked him out. The worlds hwt champion does not need to be the best fighter. He needs to be the worlds hwt champion.
     
  6. Roughhouse

    Roughhouse Member Full Member

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    Respectively, It was EXACTLY like that. Why else would Don King have set up a doubleheader of Tyson against Tillman and Foreman against Rodriquez if it wasn't a buildup to a proposed fight? Everyone was buzzing about Foreman long before Mikey lost brain cells getting beat half to death in Tokyo and even moreso after he planted Adilson right in front of King as promised. Tyson took a pass, probably at King's behest, and he was wise to do it. The Foreman who took the much superior Holyfield life and death a year later would've planted little Mike straight into the ground.
     
  7. Grapefruit

    Grapefruit Active Member Full Member

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    George foreman was probably the most naturally born fighting man of all time, iron chinned and easily top 5 strongest boxer and most powerful human beings alive, he competed as a amatuer for a year before turning pro and went undefeated until Ali, 20 years past his prime he was still a formidable opponent for any pro, Tyson might could've beaten him, but foreman could throw a punch harder and take a punch better so he has that chance, a chance the mighty Mike was unwilling to take, I heard somewhere cus said "no one could beat foreman toe to toe" maybe that had a effect on it.
     
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  8. Tramell

    Tramell Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liked to disagree and say, man, say what! :mad: But I been to fights that didn't come across as it did on t.v.:)
    Andre Dirrell vs Arthur Abraham. TV...definitely looked like a swan song acting job. But I was around the 8th row...looked legit in person, fake as hell on tv So I take your word!
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    They both fought on the same card when Tyson came back against Henry Tillman. George Fought Aldison Rodriguez. This gave George a #10 rating.

    In quick succession however, ex champion Tyson fought Alex Stewart and #3 rated Ruddock. I cannot understand why Tyson would chose Ruddock as an opponent if he was scared of George? These three fights put Tyson as #1 contender. George was still only #10.

    Nobody was ducked.

    The #1 contender took a pass on #10 and choose the #3 contender as his opponent.

    One of the worst career moves George made in his comeback was select a Tyson victim as an opponent. Alex Stewart. In all reality George did not win that fight. And this exposes the difference in levels between Old George and the real elite of that time.

    George did very well to navigate himself into a very respectable record in his second career. In truth, There were some fortunate decisions that do not pass reasonable scrutiny.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  10. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Where George was ranked had no bearing. Fights are made via the public’s demand. There was great demand to see Tyson and Foreman fight for many years when both were still active.

    Tyson always said he would always beat Rudduck as he was a one trick pony. George had two fisted KO power and the ring smarts to go with it. Foreman was an ATG. Rudduck a fighter lost to time already. Incomparable.
     
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  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    The problem I think you have here is you are using Foremans entire legacy.

    When George came back nobody took him seriously . Manny Steward included.

    This was an extremely limited older version of George Foreman. he was barely able to eke out respectable wins over fringe guys and extremely fortunate to be granted a title shot, on the back of a loss mind you, against an unlikely, vulnerable champion most of the top ten would have been favourite to beat.

    At no point was old Foreman regarded on an equal level to Ruddock, Bowe, Lewis, Tyson, Frank Bruno, McCall, Holyfield, Mercer or Tucker. He simply represented the kind of thing Larry Holmes had also become at that time, a genuine contender with enough left to hang with mid level contenders.

    We all took our hats off to him, but he was kind of an accidental champion of that era. He had no intention of fighting the best.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  12. HOUDINI

    HOUDINI Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Very early on yes. But everyone who knew boxing saw the huge potential and excitement of Foreman stopping Tyson as he did Frazier. No other fight would have generated such excitement. This is WHY it was proposed and nearly signed so many times. Boxing history.
     
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  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Among boxing people it never really moved far beyond the initial ridicule when regarding Foremans chances against the real elite at that time. Foreman was respected mostly for the money and interest he brought. Fight people knew he was always severely limited against the seriously genuine world class men. George himself would agree as well.

    The Frazier comparison was thrown around but mostly tongue in cheek.
     
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  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I honestly don't believe that Mike ducked George.

    Regarding paying step-aside money to Lennox earlier, the powers that be wanted Mike to fight Evander. That fight was huge and was originally scheduled for 1991-1992 before Mike went to prison. When Mike was released, he was steered towards an Evander fight. I truly believe that had Mike beaten Evander, we would have seen a fight against Lennox afterwards.

    Regarding Lennox, although he was a huge name back then, he still had a lot of doubters after the loss to McCall and the close win over Mercer. He didn't have the respect that he had in the twighlight of his career.

    Regarding Ray Mercer, yes, he was a very good fighter. But he'd lost to Evander in 1995.

    Regarding Tim Witherspoon, he too was a good fighter. But there was no point in Mike fighting him, when Bruno and Seldon had belts, which made the fight against Evander bigger. And by the time Mercer had fought Tim, Mike had already fought Evander.

    Regarding David Tua, he hadn't fought anybody of note until he fought Ike in 1997. He beat John Ruiz in 1996, but he too was an unknown quantity at that point. Of course you can say that a guy like Tua was on another level to a guy like McNeeley, but that was obviously a gimme for his comeback fight after 3 years of inactivity.

    By the time Mike fought guys like Saverese, he was finished as an elite level HW.

    If Mike hadn't have gone to prison, things may have been different. But you have to remember that Mike was still inside when George had lost to Morrison before he went on to beat Moorer in 1994. And by the time Mike had fought Evander, George was winding down against Saverese and Briggs.

    You could say that there was a small window before Mike went to prison, but Mike lost to Douglas in 1990 and George lost to Evander in 1991.

    For me, their timelines just didn't match up.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is a very good point. Even Lewis was not yet regarded as “great” until a much later point, ironically when he wasn’t as good. Everyone isn’t regarded as great until a much later point. This is why so many people are now confused about comeback George. Nobody was at the time.

    He has a great name, but he’s a more limited and a lower level this time around. And everyone knew this.

    This article really explains how comeback Foreman was regarded at the time:

    NBC boxing commentator Ferdie Pacheco says he always thought that Foreman and Rocky Marciano were the only guys who ever got out of boxing on time. But to come back now? Quite simply, Pacheco says.

    “This is pathetic. It shouldn't be allowed. He's overage, inept. This whole thing is a fraudulent second career to build a money fight with Tyson."

    Emanuel Steward, trainer of Thomas Hearns, among others, is similarly disgusted. On hand for the latest of Foreman's fights, a two-round TKO of Bert Cooper on June 1, he said, "A traveling road show. It just proves, you keep something out there long enough and the people will start to believe. Never in the history of boxing have there been so many handpicked bums."

    Foreman has been choosy about his opponents—to a fault, some say. Bob Arum promoted some of his early fights but grew frustrated when Foreman began nixing possible opponents. Arum had a fight made for Foreman and Anders Ecklund. "But lo and behold." says Arum, "he said Ecklund was too tough. Hits too hard."

    Arum got to like Foreman, actually; here was a fighter who would book economy for a flight to an ESPN fight and then upgrade with his own money. But after a while it became clear that Foreman was not going to stand for any competition on his way to a blockbuster fight. Arum dropped him.

    Foreman defends his choice of opponents by saying he has had to start from the ground up, so of course he would have to take it easy. "I didn't come back and say, I want the Cadillac in the window," he says. Not right away. "Anyway, I heard this same stuff the first time I came up."


    Yet men more pragmatic than Arum have come to accept a Foreman-Tyson fight as inevitable. Dan Duva, who promotes Evander Holyfield, came nosing around one of Foreman's fights. Would he be interested in Foreman as an opponent? "Sure." Because Foreman is for real? "I make no editorial comment about George Foreman's abilities," he said, laughing. "But this is the biggest fight out there."

    There are other elements to the Foreman scenario. Rick Kulis, who distributes the pay-per-view on the West Coast for big fights, says, first, there are very few opponents left for Tyson. "And Foreman represents the old guard, when you had clear-cut champions. He also represents the link to, you could say, integrity, when a champion was a champion outside the ring as well. And he's one of about four fighters independent of Don King." -Sports illustrated.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
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