Lets settle the did tyson duck foreman debate

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Jul 18, 2019.



  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes he absolutely was linear champion, interesting though that as linear champion he slid down he rankings whilst he held that title.1995 Was an unusual year.

    In The Ring Magazine ratings The official champions Seldon, Bruno And Foreman were rated number six, number seven and number eight in their top ten behind Bowe, Tyson, Lewis, Moorer And Holyfield.

    That would put Foreman a level below the top 5. He always was. And that was fair. In his comeback, he was no better than that.


    You could say, whilst we all took our hats off to George after his magnificent win, in truth, having Foreman as champion devalued the title.



    You are absolutely correct. moorer had never been beaten. Foreman beat the man who beat Holyfield who had beat Bowe. And I cannot and will not take that away from him. As it stands, George still beat the right man at the right time.

    Moorer had been knocked down twice against Holyfield who boxed very badly and was reported to have some kind of health problem at the time. Moorer had won but still managed to look vulnerable, as he also had in previous heavyweight fights against Stewart and Cooper. As an ex lightheavyweight, a lot of contenders would have relished a chance to challenge a vulnerable champion like Moorer before George did. And in reality George was at the back of the quew.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Who did brian nielson beat that makes his resume comparable to comeback Foreman's?
     
  3. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    You simply can't fight Foreman head-on. Tyson was well aware that his style matched up poorly to Foremans.

    I think he would have beaten Foreman with speed and defense but that Tyson no longer existed during the 90's.

    Foreman was a sheep in wolves Clothing and Mike knew it. If Foreman If fought during the post Lewis era you would have seen how devastating he really was.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Comeback Foremans best wins are Moorer, Rodriguez and Coetzer and that is really it. Perhaps Briggs because I think he was robbed there. That is what? One great win and two and a half wins that any mid level top ten guy could emulate.

    What other fighter would be picked over Mike Tyson on the basis of being somebody who can beat Pierre Coetzer, Aldison Rodriguez And Michael Moorer with a weight advantage?

    Foreman did not beat Schulz, Stewart or Savarese in the true sense of the word. And He officially lost against Morrison and Holyfield.

    I think there is a long list of mere contenders who could emulate Comeback Foremans best wins. And I think Brian Nielsen is one of them.

    You don’t think Nielsen could also lose on points to Holyfield and Morrison? That he could also be awarded unfair decisions over Schulz, Savarese and Stewart? Brian could match those kinds of performances. Brian would beat the Coetzer and Rodriguez that George beat. Perhaps even Moorer?

    Brian at least got into the ring with Larry Holmes and might have faired slightly better than Foreman could have.

    Brian had some good names on his record. Orlin Norris, Bonecrusher Smith, Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon, Mike the bounty hunter, Jeramy Williams, Larry Holmes... he even beat Crawford Grimsby soon after Foreman defended the linear title against him.

    I think the Great Dane is pretty level with comeback George
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    As usual you shift the goal posts.

    You dont acknowledge foreman blatantly getting robbed against briggs and question his wins over Schulz and Stewart, but brian nielson getting a gift over a waaay past his prime holmes and a 41 year old washed up tim witherspoon puts him in foremans level? Are you drunk? At least the majority of foremans best opponents were in their prime. And he won major sanctioning body belts. Nielson didnt win jack except a few minor paper titles. He was stopped by an old holyfield while foreman went the distance with a prime version. Nothing in their records or stats suggests theyre on tbe same level if we're being honest here.
     
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  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Cheers.
     
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  7. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Your correct in the people were laughing at George for a couple of years into his comeback. Nobody had seen this before.
    Some laughter started to die off when Bert Cooper quit on his stool saying he didn't want "brain damage from Foreman's punches". Or when Big George stretched Cooney. Not that Jerry was a top contender but most fans understood he was dangerous. We even saw him clip Foreman with his A lefthook and George took it.
    Most of all was when he got a shot at Holyfield. Foreman lost like 8-4 but he rocked Evander in a spirited fight. George got respect that nite and most of us saw him as a good heavyweight after that.
    Dokes and Ferguson, Cooper all got shots at the title around this time. As I stated $ talks and Foreman drew $.
     
  8. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Go
    Good post. The style of Tyson, being a shorter little tank like fighter it brought back images of Foreman/Frazier. George still seemed to have his heavyhands. Tyson would come at him.
    That is central casting.
     
  9. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    Yeah we see the timeline a bit different. But You're definitely knowledgeable about that era.
    While I agree Tyson & Holy were supposed to meet 1991-1992, Lennox step aside $ was in 1996 due to a court decision, where Tyson's team sued to not fight their mandatory. & I acknowledge by 1992, it's lock down time, got to wait until 1995.

    Bowe's team refused Lennox as a mandatory, pre-Tyson prison.
    Tyson's team refused Lennox as a mandatory, post- Tyson prison.

    1995 as U stated Tyson takes on 2 softies, then title time Bruno, that's understood.
    Tyson loses to Holy, Holy loses to Lennox who by 1999 is now the IBF, WBC, WBC & IBO Champ.
    Side note Had that been Wilder who opted to not fight the dude who had all the belts (AJ) some could call that serious ducking. no need to clean house, it already is. So rather than fight for belts, he spent 3 years fighting no one who could prepare him for a title shot. Lewis gets KO'd, rematch & get belt back, well now it's time to make it happen!

    IMO Mercer, Witherspoon & Tua's losses weren' t reasons to fight Botha, Norris a former CW & Julius Francis?
    Especially Ray Mercer who went on a win streak from end of 1996 -2002 losing to only Lewis & Klitschko in between, 3 years minimum to do what Lennox, Holy,Morrison, Briggs, Witherspoon, Cooper & Holmes did : fight the merciless one!

    On GF:
    Tyson wins 1st title 11-1986 2nd title 1987, so GF comes back to boxing just to fight Tyson in 1987.

    MT decides instead to fight Holmes who had to come out of retirement in 1988 after given 2 losses in a row, but not an active GF who was shaming young fighters by fighting near 8-10 times a year.?
    Small windows as you stated, but nonetheless who he choose in those small windows imo wreaks of a team trying to milk what they could out of a shell of a fighter who may have never recovered his aura after Douglass. Prison prevented us from finding out.
    Crucial because by that time the Olympic class he failed to make were now pros meaning eventually he couldn't keep facing the tubbs, tuckers & Greens.
     
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  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Actually I did acknowledge the robbery Briggs got over George. I counted that as half a win for Foreman because George got robbed. That half of a win made it three and a half decent wins in his comeback. Moorer was a great win. Rodriguez and Coetzer decent wins. Briggs, half of a win. I think that is extremely generous.

    Are you completely comfortable that If any other fighter beat Moorer, Rodriguez, Coetzer (and get the moral win over Shannon the cannon) it makes for an all time great Resume?
     
  11. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King Full Member

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    Nelson's best name opponent wins are a senior citizen holmes, which was a disputed split decision, and a stoppage over an old ass 41 year old Witherspoon. He doesnt have a single prime competent opponent as far as i know. Say what you want about the verdicts but Briggs, Stewart, and schulz were all prime young hard hitting opponents. Foreman also had cooper and coonery, if youre going to count a decrepit old witherspoon as a noteworthy win. Nielson doesnt have a single undefeated champion on his resume. Foreman does. Nielson was stopped by an old ass holyfield while foreman went the distance with a young undisputed holyfield. They couldn't be further apart.

    Nielson is barely derreck chisora level.
     
  12. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    I don't really disagree, but wondering if we could use your analogy to ask: Who was Norris the year he fought him? Who was Botha, Francis? Why doesn't their loses matter but just for Mercer & co?

    We will have to agree to disagree on your story of King's alienation plot. I side with Tyson who said he could sell out Madison Square Garden just by jacking off. King is a great promoter, but a shady, shifty, crappy human being, whom I'd never quote to validate a point on boxing and truthful events.

    Foreman can refuse, excuse me:cool:, do what many fighters do (cherry pick). He came back for Tyson & $ that comes along with it. I agree that Foreman's choice of comp didnt say Tyson level, but again got to go back to who he did choose? He took on stiffs few knew.

    And what makes me dare say he would step in the ring with Tyson? When interviewed pre fights post fights ledderman, Late Night show. That's on you, if you think he came back to pretend he wanted to fight Tyson. That's a long ways to go.
    I'm down with his reason- he saw a mental midget with muscles. A guy who falters, fatigues after 4-6 rounds. Look at how frustrated he got with Ruddock. Blatant fouls getting pointd deducted left and right. I think a fighter can see something in their own, especially and older one. He saw in Mike, what Ali saw in George; a weakness of some sort. Can't prove, it, just believe it.
    All of those reasons and a few more are why I'd say yes!:yaay Foreman would step in the ring with a guy that supposedly Cus told Mike,.....he really is not your ideal opponent.:nonono
     
  13. BrutalForeman

    BrutalForeman Active Member Full Member

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    In the early 90's prior to Tyson going to prison, Foreman was at his comeback best. Tyson would be walking right in to Foreman uppercuts. Over and Over again. Tell me who would survive relentless Foreman uppercuts again??
     
  14. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Foreman stock went up after his fight with Holyfield. I think he was the first fighter to go the distance with Evander as a heavyweight. George fought Holyfield better than Tyson would later on. Much better.
     
  15. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    This.