Lets Swap Calzaghe and Hopkins Opponents and see whos Best ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by trampie, Dec 29, 2009.


  1. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

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    By what virtue would Kessler beat Hopkins?
     
  2. horst

    horst Guest

    PS: Prime Roy Jones would have knocked Joe out, 100%. His speed and power vs Joe's susceptibility to the right hand, statue head and sloppy defence = only one result.
     
  3. horst

    horst Guest

    Another reason why this doesn't work is that they fought at different weights. It's far easier to assume a supermiddle beats a middle than the other way around. Of course it's easy to assume that Joe Calzaghe would have been too strong for Jermain Taylor, but would a 40+ year old Calzaghe have been too good for a Jermain Taylor-standard prime undefeated supermiddle? This is a different question entirely from merely superimposing their opponents onto each other. And this is before you even consider that many people felt Hopkins won one or two of the Taylor fights.
     
  4. Beeston Brawler

    Beeston Brawler Comical Ali-egedly Full Member

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    Hopkins would have beat Kessler clearly on points - he took Pavlik's right hand away and would have done the same to Kessler, and certainly wouldn't have been badly hurt by several uppercuts in the 4th round.

    Young Jones would have stopped Calzaghe I agree.

    There isn't any basis for ranking Calzaghe above Hopkins, either H2H or on accomplishments - Calzaghe held a fringe title for years in a weak division, allowing several fighters to co-exist as champion, whereas Hopkins was undisputed champion in a division of comparable quality.

    As for their actual fight, I scored it to Hopkins - he put Joe down, won each of the first four rounds and didn't take a clean punch all night, made the opponent fight his fight etc etc..... if American judges didn't place so much emphasis on workrate and aggression, Hopkins would have received the nod.
     
  5. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Of course there is a basis for ranking Cal above Bhops, Calzaghe beat him in the ring away from home, Cal out does Bhop fighting each others opponents, Cal achievements are equally good, being unbeaten when fighting lots of his fights on the road is exceptional, amongst others is fighting Englishmen like Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Starie and Delaney in England , a German in Germany for a World title and two Yanks {Roy Jones Jnr and Bernard Hopkins } in America.
    How many fights outside his own country did Hopkins have, and to say that you personally think that Hopkins won the fight against Calzaghe is putting your own spin on history, fair enough for a robbery, but not when most people agree with the verdict.
     
  6. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    That's how I see it. He would've treated Calzaghe's offence like Brannon's then tore into him, landing on him at free will.

    I can imagine Calzaghe lasting the onslaught and read******g, but Jones would hit him at will from any range. Calzaghe would try his best but he'd be majorly outgunned I fear, and taken apart within 8.
     
  7. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hopkins has a clever right hand. Jones has an athletic right hand. They are very different and it is only the one type Calzaghe is open too.

    Jones beat everyone because he was faster, his punch and reflexes than them.

    Against someone as quick as Joe that is somewhat negated.

    Once Jones lost his speed and reflexes he lost to Tarver and Johnson. He did not have the skillset to fall back on.

    Against Calzaghe he cannot rely just on speed, that is silly against Calzaghe.

    Calzaghe wins, would be silly to suggest otherwise given the evidence.
     
  8. Beeston Brawler

    Beeston Brawler Comical Ali-egedly Full Member

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    :rofl

    You are really scraping the barrel here..... travelling to England from Newbridge is **** all - and neither was going to Germany to fight a guy he had already destroyed in one round :lol:

    TWO trips to America - WOW! Ricky Hatton had fought in Germany and America x2 before fighting for the British title in 2000 - and has since fought in the US about six times.

    Benn and Eubank both had many fights in the States - fighting your last two fights there, one of them against a guy that hadn't beaten anyone with a pulse for five years is hardly something to shout from the rooftops about.

    Calzaghe was an exceptional fighter, one who had the ability to change a gameplan that wasn't working in order to win - but please..... he is no ATG. His resume is pretty shocking, if Haye beats both Klitschko's and retires immediately after, he'd go above Calzaghe in an all time British list.
     
  9. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste Active Member Full Member

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    Calzaghe would beat all the fighters mentioned in your note.

    1. Pavlik - Calzaghe would be too fast and too slick. If Hopkins schooled Pavlik, so would Calzaghe.

    2. Winky - Calzaghe does everything Winky does and better. He is also bigger and stronger, and much more active. Would look like the PW fight.

    3. Tarver - Calzaghe too fast, too active, too clever.

    4. ODLH - Calzaghe too big, too fast, too clever, too active. Plus ODLH would gas at the pace Calzaghe would set.

    5. Trinidad - would be too one dimensional for Joe and would be out slicked and stopped. Would resemble the Lacy fight.
     
  10. trampie

    trampie Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Fighting away from home puts a boxer at a disadvantage, Calzaghe fought lots of his fights away from home, Calzaghe beat 45 different opponents, Calzaghe won every fight he ever had fair and square, he had two split decisions both of which the vast majority of people think he won, actually he won both easily on two of the three judges scorecards, the only controverse being why the one remaining judge was so badly out of sink with the other two, both bouts were away from home too, Calzaghe was a superb underrated undefeated and avoided champion.
     
  11. horst

    horst Guest

    I should add...

    Lets Swap the Opponents of Thomas Hearns and Mike McCallum and see who's Best:

    Prime McCallum beats Cuevas, Duran and Benitez.
    Prime McCallum loses to Hagler, Leonard
    The 175 McCallum who beat Jeff Harding also IMO beats Andries & V.Hill

    But McCallum never loses to Barkley at 160 or 175
    The fat cruiser version of Mike probably would also lose to Uriah Grant.

    So, McCallum has done better with Hearns's comp than Hearns did, going by Trampie's system.


    Prime Hearns beats Jackson, McCrory, Curry
    Prime Hearns vs prime Kalambay? Tough call.
    Prime Hearns beats Graham, Watson
    I'd back prime mw Toney to beat the mw Hearns, and the cruiser Toney to beat the cruiser Hearns
    Jones Jr knocks Hearns cold at 175
    Hearns probably beats Harding & Tiozzo at 175

    All in all, McCallum has done better over the course of both resumes, so he is a greater fighter than Hearns, according to Trampie's logic.



    Let's Swap the Opponents of Vitali Klitschko and Evander Holyfield and see who's Best:

    I can't be bothered going over it all in detail again, but Holy beats everyone on Vitali's res except Lewis (same as Vitali), while Vitali would probably lose 2-1 to Bowe as well, beat that version of Tyson twice, "draw" and lose in two with Lewis - but VitKlit is never losing to Moorer, Ruiz, Toney, Byrd, Donald, Ibragimov, Valuev.

    All in all, Klitschko has done better over the course of both resumes, so he is a greater fighter than Holyfield, according to Trampie's theory.


    Conclusion: This kind of comparison is utterly pointless, as Hearns and Holyfield are clearly greater than McCallum and Klitschko. The circumstances surrounding the bouts can never be the same nor ever would be the same, these hypotheticals have no value whatsoever.
     
  12. Beeston Brawler

    Beeston Brawler Comical Ali-egedly Full Member

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    :lol::rofl:patsch

    Avoided?

    The resume of opponents that Calzaghe didn't fight is probably stronger than the one that he did.

    Taylor
    Froch
    Old Hill
    Maske
    Ottke
    Woods
    Michalcszewski
    Gonzalez
    Young Dawson
    Johnson

    vs

    Shot Eubank
    Shot Jones
    Kessler
    Hopkins
    Lacy
    Manfredo
    Bika
    Sobot
    Pudwill
    Veit

    :yep
     
  13. itrymariti

    itrymariti Cañas! Full Member

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    This seems somewhat circular.

    With that sublime jab of his, and near-impenetrable defence?

    Simples.

    Well, Calzaghe's a SMW. If you boil him down to a 160-size fighter, I don't see him easily outboxing even that version of DLH.

    Thanks for your detailed analysis.

    I'm not saying JC doesn't beat any of these guys, but it's far from the foregone conclusion the OP seems to deem it.
     
  14. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Calzaghe has a better jab than Ronald Wright.
     
  15. itrymariti

    itrymariti Cañas! Full Member

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    :lol: