Let's switch Willie Pep and Sweet Pea

I must admit, it's hard to see Saddler winning the fights with Cortez/Nady type reffing, but imo, Cortez and Nady have been disgraceful of late with their reffing in fights like Jones-Ruiz, Mayweather-Hatton. Way too oversensitive to a clinch, never giving fighters a decent chance of fighting their way out of it.

With what I would consider a decent ref in there that gives some lee-way I think Saddler would have decent chances of still getting to Pep.

 

Yeh i agree Saddler still has a decent chance against Pep with modern refs as Pep was as dirty.

All though Saddler wouldnt have won the 3rd if it want for that shoulder injury. People say the 2nd fight was masterful by Pep will he cant have been too much worse in the 3rd, he was pretty good.

The 4th fight was a dirty maul and by todays rules both fighters could have been DQd or at least Pep IMO but Saddler did alot of stuff unnoticed by the ref in that fight

 

Sweet Scientist and Sweet Pea....You guys are lighter weight fanatics. I love it, you bring alot to this forum. I love your scorecards too. But for some reason, god knows why when it comes to willie pep, You guys just plain out dont like the man. I have never seen a thread where you guys complimented him or defended him. You guys love master boxer technicians in the lighterweights, so realistically pep SHOULD be your favorite fighter, yet you guys just plain out dont like the guy and go out of your way to bash him at any cost. A man who recorded one of the single greatest wins of all time while past his own prime, cleaned out an entire era for a decade, did not draw the color line, rates at the top h2h with his unbelievable boxing skills/footwork/defense....I mean this guy is pernell whitaker x2.....I will never understand what your problem is with the guy.

 

You're suggesting he's better than Whitaker, please you have got to be kidding me. Pernell could rack up 200 wins if he fought unranked opponents too. Half of Pernell's wins were against ranked opponents, maybe 10% of pep's wins were against ranked opposition.

 

im a huge Pep fan an i dont think they are being unreasonable they are admitting he was great but saying what isnt too good about him and justifying it. In fact they are basically agreeing with me about he would lose afew like he did in his time to a top level opponent and your just being unreasonable and overrating Pep to an extent.

I would go to say that i like Pep as much as you and rate him as highly.

I would say hes abit better than Pea but not x2 as Suzy said

as for the rest of your post you dont know **** so **** off

 

Thats a bit strong. :blood

 

Surprised you didn't comment on the other bit

 

10% of 241 is still more than half of 46. :good

You would be wrong though, Pep fought a ton of ranked contenders.

Whitaker fought some disgraceful bums too, such as Jesus De La Cruz (1-6), Jim Flores (0-3), Antonio Carter (4-7), Martin Galvan (7-16), Jerry Smith (12-13), Ben Baez (7-4) among others as tune-ups for bigger fights.

 

That's my problem, the highlighted bit. I don't respond easily to bull****. I have no problem with Pep himself, just as I have no problem with a guy like Pacquiao, who people often accuse me of hating on. I have a problem with the overglorification of certain fighters though, especially when it's done at the expense of others, much the way you're doing with Pep in comparison to Whitaker.

IMO Whitaker was the superior fighter based on what I've seen of the two on film, clearly. I've seen the majority of what's available on Pep, including the little bit of footage that exists of him pre-plane crash, and I've come to that conclusion. That's not to say that Pep is overrated by any means, I think he was a fantastic boxer with phenomenal skills and a beautiful style. His footwork and use of angles is among the best I've ever seen. I just don't think he's quite as versatile as Whitaker, and given the circumstances of their careers, Pep didn't really face the greater opposition, nor did he have a more successful career outside of the fact that he fought a lot more often (which has to be taken in perspective with the eras).

Again, I have no problem with Pep, or many fighters at all really. I just don't take kindly to bull****, particularly when it's done at the expense of my favorite fighter. Hardly hating.

 

I don't see much that's unreasonable in my claims about Pep. Hardly hate the bloke. In fact I rate him above Whitaker myself.

My claims with regards to Willie Pep are:

1. I don't think the past prime Pep which is pretty much all we have on film is that impressive looking. Totally think it's possible that he looked better than Sweet Pea in his prime. John Garfield, who saw plenty of prime Pep thought pre-plane crash Pep was a much better fighter. So if you think he looks better than Whitaker from what you see, then **** me dead, he must really have been Whitaker x 2 in his prime!

2. I don't buy the excuses that Saddler simply won the 3rd and 4th fights because of the rough stuff. Pep was outboxing him in bouts 3 and 4 but what he's doing half way through the bout and what he's doing by the time 15 rounds are up are two different things. Saddler was a physical beast and so it was only natural that he would try and impose himself physically on Pep. Some of the things he was doing were illegal, but if you cut Pep slack for succumbing to them, you might as well cut some slack for Flash Elorde, Ray Famechon and the countless other guys that found Saddler's rough stuff too much and couldn't go on. In which case, you're saying Saddler really wasn't that good a fighter. Are you happy to stick to that claim? I can't agree to that claim. If you listen to Willie talk about Saddler though, he doesn't take the wins away from Sandy, and I think there's a reason why he doesn't. And it's not simply because Willie's a swell guy.

3. I claim that if Pep fights a lot of quality guys several times over (guys better than anyone bar Saddler that he fought at 126) he's going to come up with some losses. Nothing unreasonable in that surely.

I've never bagged Willie for fighting a bunch of bums. He fought a lot of quality fighters over a long time and i appreciate that. The talent he faced was not as deep as some other guys like Charles and Moore, but that's hardly anything to be ashamed of. His resume is still, all things considered, outstanding.

 

I truely believe that some fighters put on performances that simply can't be bettered. However, it comes down to how many times a certain fighter did it and the quality of opponent he was up against when he did it. Moving up and beating bigger opponents also counts a great deal.

Here are some fights where the winner was so good it couldn't be bettered - although perhaps equalled - by others.

Duran W15 Leonard.

Hopkins TKO12 Trinidad.

Mayweather TKO10 Corrales.

Calzaghe W12 Lacy.

Robinson W15 LaMotta.

Sanchez TKO8 Gomez.

Jones W12 Toney.

Whitaker W12 Ramirez II

Whitaker W12 Nelson.

The manner in which these wins were executed are hard to better. And look at each of these wins and think of another fighter with comparable power, and think to yourself if the fighter you have in mind could do any better. Some serious hitters might well get the job done earlier. But **** power, the real skilled fighters don't rely on it.

 

I think Robbi's in the wrong thread.

 

Yeah, I put it in here rather than start a new thread.

 

:goodGood Post

 

yeh it was, he jjst got me annoyed hes said a few things that i have intrepreted as being abit antagonistic and i was just pissed off. Dosent help me and my Dad has fallen out and i had a real bad day

so sorry Brownpimp it was harsh i take it back.

we do the pizzas you do the maths

still pretty impressive aint it

Im sure you guys remember i used to rate Pep very highly and say on film he wa better than Pea. But you guys gave balanced arguments so i wathced back the old footage. Theres no doubting Pep is great and his angles and movement is the best i have seen. But as you guys say Pea is more versatile but a prime Pep could be different.

just my little piece.

your missing pep vs Saddler 2

i thought so too

lazy bugger.