Let's talk about James Jeffries

You mean the $500 offer by Fitz to Munroe if he could stay four rounds?

Let's print what everyone said:

AP---"Fitzsimmons has posted a forfeit of $500 to put Munroe out in four rounds."

New York Times--"Fitzsimmons has posted a forfeit of $500 to put Munroe out in four rounds."

Brooklyn Eagle--"'Bob' Fitsimmons, who is in the West with Jeffries, will undertake to dispose of Monroe on next Saturday night, and, if he fails to do the trick in four rounds, he will turn over $500 to Monroe."

If you want to conclude that all three of these stories obviously come from the same wire source, that is your right. I do not. The New York Times is printing the AP report. The Brooklyn Eagle report is written completely differently. They all agree on the $500 amount, but that is best explained by that being factually the amount offered. The Brooklyn Eagle not only has a different wording, but spells Munroe's name differently. There is no evidence these came from the same wire source.
That is my judgement.

 

I never said what you claim I said. ALL sources should be looked at with skepticism. You pointed out bad reports, but because some reports are bad does not mean all are bad or that any given report is bad just because you want it to be. People make mistakes reporting events all the time. History is never an exact science. Most of the time it is the art of discerning the truth from conflicting stories and warring biases. This is a good case in point.

 

Sigh. What $500? I wrote $1K, which means $1000, offered by Jeffries to stop Munroe in a rematch. BDE received the AP wire with that news, the wire that spelled his name as Munroe (it is spelled that way in all other newspapers that re-printed that AP wire), but BDE still continued to spell it Monroe. BDE wasn't receiving any other public wires (ie, not ones from special correspondents sent to witness the event or to take interview), there were basically only two - AP and UP, and I don't recall seeing BDE print a single UP wire in hundreds of BDE issues I've looked for boxing-related info.


Bad report is a non-confirmed suspicious wire that is contradicted by at least three eye-witnesses who had seen the fight. Jeffries tried to refute the claim of being knocked down in a couple of days, as I pointed out, but the AP obviously didn't accept that "news", because it'd prove it distributing false news and that's not in their interests. So that Jeffries was only left with one choice - to send his rebutal to whatever local sources there were, such as Anaconda Standard, where it could be read by maybe several thousand people at best, while the rest of the nation stayed oblivious of his statements about the issue. If we are talking about journalism ethics, it is the first rule of objective reporting - to get views of both sides, and report them, unchanged. In this case the AP only printed the Munroe-favoring report and didn't even seek for Jeffries' statement, even though it would be easily obtainable by the same reporter who sent out the original (false) wire about Jeffries being down.

 

I am sorry I mixed up what the point was you were trying to make, but I still that the three $500 quotes are rather interesting.

You seem to me to be arguing that because a report that Jeffries offered $1000 came on the AP wire, that is only source from which the Brooklyn Eagle could have gotten any information about it. On what basis can such a claim be made? The editor could have had a personal contact in Butte, perhaps a friend, who sent him wires on request. There is simply no way to know. Anyway, I'm not maintaining the Brooklyn Eagle was unfamiliar with the AP. It just seems they had some other source of information.

And if one AP correspondent would not print Jeffries' rebuttal, why wouldn't Jeffries just talk to another reporter in another city? And why send a denial to the Anaconda Standard? if they knew the truth anyway? Why not the major New York papers? Jeffries can't send a wire directly to the New York Times or the Brooklyn Eagle bypassing the AP? I just don't buy into your AP conspiracy theory.

And I don't see how the continuing usage of "Monroe" backs up that the Eagle editor was dependent on the AP reports about "Munroe".

On this thread, only three ringside sources have been printed so far. The Anaconda Standard, the Butte Miner, and the AP wire report. Two do not mention a Jeffries knockdown. The AP does, and the AP wire report was almost certainly written by the same reporter who wrote the Butte Miner report. That is confusing and that is where we stand. You are certain foul deeds are afoot and you seem assured you know exactly what kind of foul deeds were done. I am just not certain and will withhold judgement until more primary sources come in.

I think it best we agree to disagree. This has been most informative and I have learned much from your input.

I will repeat that I think the weight of evidence is against Jeffries having gone down, but a slip or flash knockdown might be possible.

 

I repeat, when there are exclusive sources of information, such as correspondent at the place of the event, or one of the participants in the event is sending something to particular newspaper by telegram, it has a prefix "Special" at the beginning of the report. BDE didn't have anything of the kind, and clearly got it from the wire. There was only one wire it could get it from - AP.

There weren't AP reporters walking around to talk to. We don't really know that he didn't send a rebutal to some NY paper, there were over a dozen newspapers published in NY, Times and BDE not being among most popular and well-known. Talking to Anaconda Standard correspondent was easy and free, so he shared his statement with them.

Sigh. What you cannot understand? That BDE received a wire from the AP 2 days after the fight, which spelled the name as "Munroe"? The same wire hundreds of other newspapers around the US received and printed, none of them spelling his name "Monroe" anymore, except BDE. Like I said, your conspiracy theory about spelling of his name as "Monroe" meaning it had another source of information other than AP, is completely false. BDE knows it is spelled Munroe by now, but still continues to spell it as Monroe.

The author in the Butte Miner and the author of the wire could be different people. The original report was obviously written by Butte Miner staff correspondent. The text of the wire could be send by somebody else, who simply used the Miner report, but slightly altered it before sending it to the AP. Miner, quite probably, was one of AP-affiliated newspapers (newspaper that paid for using AP-wires, and which could share its own reports of local events with the AP).

 

As an example, here are a few reports where the Eagle received exclusive telegrams from it's correspondents:

1902-12-30 The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page 11):
FOUR PRIZE FIGHTS STARTLE PATCHOGUERS.
---
Lively Bouts in Empty Ice House on Bank of Patchogue Lake.
---
KNOCKOUT IN ONE SCRAP.
---
Village Officials Sublimely Ignorant That Law Was Being Broken. Ideal Conditions.
---
(Special to the Eagle.)
Patchogue, L. I., December 30--The good people of this town were ...


1902-12-12 The Brooklyn Daily Eagle:
EASY FOR FITZGERALD.
---
Brooklyn Fighter Beats Charley Seiger of Hoboken in Twenty Round Bout.
---
(Special to the Eagle.)

New Britain, Conn., December 12--Willie Fitzgerald of Brooklyn easily defeated Charley Seiger ...



1902-12-28 The Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page 42):
JEFFRIES LET MINER STAY FOR FOUR ROUNDS.
---
Now Mr. Munroe of Butte, Mont., Thinks He Is the Coming "Champ."
---
(Special to the Eagle.)
Butte, Mont., December 27--While the press throughout the country is heralding "Jack" Munroe, the Butte miner, who outfought James J. Jeffries, last Saturday night, at this place, as the latest aspirant for championship honors, the Butte Inter-Mountaiu comes out with a new story.

According to the local paper, Jeffries made an agreement with the club management to let Munroe stay four rounds, provided a decision was not given against the champion.

The referee, however, was evidently not "in the know," and so, when the buriy miner (apparently) put it all over "Jeff," and was as fresh as a daisy at the end of the bout, he gave the local man the decision.

Cochran, a Chicago traveling man, who was here and saw the fight, was the first to let the cat out of the bag.

Munroe, meanwhile, shows a laudable desire to make hay while the sun shines. Rumor has it that the miner will tour the country as a vaudevilic attraction at a salary of $500 a week.

Munroe talks glibly of matches with Sharkey and McCoy for $5,000 stakes, and intimates that Mr. Jeffries will be accommodated after he has disposed of the "small fry."

Local devotees of the "squared circle," however, admit that Munroe is a husky chap, with a good, stiff punch, but figure that "Jack the Miner" is aiming a trifle high.

 

The last bit from the Butte Inter-Mountain is quite interesting. This whole fight was a fix? Unfortunately, this article does not tell us who exactly Cochran was or why or how he had this inside information.

And Munroe's later manager, Clark Ball, according to Gilbert Odd, was on Jeff's payroll. Most interesting. And the top contender, Jack Johnson, ends up frozen out while Jeff and Munroe fight.

This article seems to show the Eagle indeed got specials from Butte. Why would they need to print every special they received? which could explain the second source of information.

Keep these articles coming, Senya.

 

"The author in the Butte Miner and the author of the wire could be different people."

Yes, but what difference does that really make--the reporter himself or someone else alters the story--and how can we possibly know today? Such a close paraphase of the gist of the story and then putting in a sensational lie might risk angering the reporter enough so that he comes forward to dispute the AP. Also, the time line would seem to be a problem. In post #118 (I believe) you quote the special to the Colorado paper which was printed the next day. If someone beside the Butte Miner writer sent this out, he would have to have access to the published story. Could he get it on the wire in time to be printed in a December 21 (the morning after the fight) paper? The Butte Miner writer himself could get a tightened story out much quicker.

There were 58 daily newspapers published in New York City in 1900. I have no idea where the Brooklyn Eagle or New York Times stood in circulation, although the Times was under the management which took it to the top (Adolph Ochs).

 

Forgive me if this was posted before but this thread is loooooooooooooooong but interesting and well argued and informed. In the December 24th Washington Times an article generally boosting Munroe quotes him as saying "I could have knocked him down easily had I wanted to take the chances but I was there to stay the four rounds..."
Pretty conclusive if you accept it as a correct quote which with the other evidence I am inclined to do.

 

There we have it. Direct from Munroe, there was no knockdown.

 

I agree. The strongest evidence yet. I don't think there was a knockdown. What was happening with the AP report is really difficult to fathom. The writer thought there was a knockdown? Why wasn't it in the Butte report then? He was paid to lie? Possible, but why did whoever paid the writer not make certain Munroe was on board? Or was Munroe just too honest?

The report of a fix and it being Jeff's man who puffs up Munroe still raises intriguing questions for me.

 

Some thought old drink-addled Peter Maher lay down against Munroe...

 

There is plenty that smells about the whole Jeffries-Munroe saga, to say the least. And the bottom line was that Jack Johnson was shuffled off to the side while Jeff fattened his resume on an easy defense.

 

Slight aside from the San Francisco Call, December 21. BTW they carry the detailed report of Munroe lasting and winning but no Kd's to his credit and multiple Kd's for Jeffries.
Jack Munroe Is well known to followers
of football and boxing, in this city. Dur -
ing the seasons of '99 and '00 he played
football on the Olympic and the Reliance
Club teams. Munroe played guard on
both teams and wag a tower of strength.
He Is a big man, weighing about
220 pounds In condition. He was noted
for his tremendous legs and was famil -
iarly known to the sporting fraternity as
"Piano Legs."
When not playing football Munroe acted
as trainer for "Doc" Flynn, Jack Moffatt
and "Philadelphia'.' Jack O'Brien. He
was a big, good-natured fellow and was
popular. Munroe fought a preliminary
battle in this city and was knocked out.
He knew little about the boxing game at
that time, although he had past masters
of the art to box with. Munroe was
as slow as the proverbial "ice wagon."
He could take a punch, and when it came
to roughing it he was there with both
hands.
Munroe lost his standing as an amateur
for accepting money as trainer and for
fighting professionally. His services
were in demand during the football season
and he was reinstated to amateur stand -
ing in order that he might play with the
Athletic Club teams.

 

I wonder if Jeffries and Munroe knew each other in San Francisco?