Let's talk about James Jeffries

This is from the Syracuse Herald, 1-21-1916 story covering Munroe after reports Munroe had been killed in France. This is the part which deals with the 1902 exhibition:

"Jeffries arrived at Butte, Montana, where Munroe was working as a mine boss in December, 1902. Jack was a handy man about the camp with his fists and he didn't hesitate a moment when Jeffries offered to meet any man in town for four rounds. If he failed to knock out his victim Jeffries agreed to forfeit a substantial portion of the gate receipts. Munroe not only went the distance but he succeeded in bringing Jeffries to his knees with a punch. Jim always claimed he slipped on a wet spot but that didn't prevent Munroe's name flying round the world."

My comment--This is report from years later, but the Jeffries reference implies that Jeffries had conceded that he went down in this fight.

 

Whoa. Rhaman won the 1st Lewis fight by KO. We all know Rhaman scored the KO here.

Munroe only lasted the distance, and was knocked down several times, which really means he lost, but " won " $500 .00 for lasting the distance.

I would not compare a real match with known results to an exhibition match with an unkown result.

The question is, did Munroe score a knockdown or not. The local source says no way, and Jeffries anger with Munroe for spreading falsehoods about the ex match were evident in the real match.

When in doubt, go with the local source who was there.

 

NY Times report (here - dated Dec 22, 1902) and BDE report are coming from the same author (AP).

Anaconda Standard always had good reports of fights taking place within the Montana state. For example, on Joe Gans-Buddy King bout at Butte (1903-07-04) the Standard had pre-fight reports on June 11, 18, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, July 2, 3, 4, with a lot of details and with very good next-day report of the fight.

I have them as scans, not as text. Here - page 1, continued on page 14.

 

1. "Jeffries anger at Munroe for spreading falsehoods"

Jeffries should have been mad at the New York Times, not Munroe. The Times clearly said he was down in their story sent out of Butte the night of the fight (note the word "tonight") and printed in the first edition it would probably have been possible to print it in as the Sunday edition came out the morning right after the fight.

2. "The question is, did Monroe score a knockdown or not."

I agree, and the contemporary New York Times ringside report said he did and even went so far as to say Jeffries was in danger of a knockout. The New York Times obituary of Munroe in 1942 stated that Jeffries took a nine count. The Syracuse report from 1916 I posted implied Jeffries himself conceded he was off his feet.


3. My point in bringing up the Lewis-Rhaman fights was not that the first Jeffries-Munroe fight was some sort of comp of the first Lewis-Rhaman fight, but that the result of a second match between two fighters can not be adduced as proof of what happened in the first fight. Jeffries destroyed Munroe in 1904. This does not mean he automatically did the same in 1902.

4. The Butte Public Library informs me they have six pages of original material on the 1902 fight, mainly from the Butte Miner. They are sending it to me through snail mail. I will post the relevant parts of it when I recieve it.

 

Also whats a knockdown?

If recent fights were not fillmed I could imagine a debate in years to come over whether Shannon Briggs knocked down Lennox Lewis.

Some reports wouldnt list it, some would describe it corectly, and some would embelish it.

 

Thank you, Senya. I can't read much of this except the headline "He had Jeff going" and "Miner wins two hundred" but I will try to get in contact with the Anaconda Public Library and see if I can get a copy of this article which I can read.

I am being sent from Butte the reports from the Butte Library from the Miner.

 

True. One thing about these reports, though. Most seem to imply Jeff in fact was hurt, in danger of a knockout, or "going"--I wasn't able to decipher the Anaconda Standard article beyond headlines, though. Also, an Anaconda Standard article from 12-24-1903 raises another issue about this fight--a Jeffries foul--I will post that article later today when I have time.

 

The scan is not of the best quality, but still quite readable, to me.


Munroe Starts Off Strong.

The entertainment had been so tame up to the time that Munroe entered the ring with Jeffries that the spectators felt that there was to be nothing exciting. The crowd was agreeably disappointed, however, as Munroe saved the night. When the first gong struck he opened the proceedings by pushing Jeffries' head back with a stiff right jab on the nose. The champion winced and got a left on the head. He saw he was against a foeman who meant to try to stay four rounds, and he waded in. Munroe was not to be easily found, however, and delighted the crowd by cleverly ducking vicious swings and getting away from hard leads.

Then came a case of give and take with Munroe outpointing Jeffries all through that round and the second round. Three times did Munroe land on Jeff's jaw in the second round and in rapid succession. Jeff showed that he was not in condition and began to puff. Once in the second round Jeff showed that he was mad and sent Munroe to the floor, but not with sufficient force to make him quit.

In the third round Jeff showed more championship form than at any time during the go. He landed on Munroe's jaw good and hard, and again the miner went to the floor.

Twice afterwards in that round Munroe went down and wisely took the count. He was there not to whip Jeffries, but to stay four rounds, and he used his head well. Sometimes he clinched to save himself but he invariably got the worst of the clinches, as Jeff never failed to land on the body. After one of the clinches Jeff got in a right swing on the stomach and Munroe went down to stay had not the gong saved him.

When the men came up for the fourth round the crowd was wild with excitement. From all sides came cries of "Stick to him, Jack," and Jack was sticking. He never once faltered or showed a sign of "yellow." No matter how much he was punished he was always back at the champion and he landed often. Had he not been so tired he might have hurt Jeffries, but as it was his blows lacked steam. Jeff was going it desperately and taking advice from the signs of Fitzsimmons, who was in his corner, but to no purpose. Munroe would go down from a punch, but would come back again after the count in wonderfully game fashion. At no time did he show a disposition to quit, though badly punished. When the time was called for the end of the fourth round Munroe was all in, but he was a hero, who had well won the tumultuous applause which greeted him.

 

Thanks, Senya--I am certain this is accurate although I can't read anything but the headline myself. I did get in touch with the Anaconda Library and they are going to send me a "copy" of this article. When I get it, I will post the pertinent parts.

One thing, though, very rarely do they say anyone was knocked down. Both Jeff in the other articles and Munroe for the most part in this one "went down" or "went" to their knees. This does leave the door open to the possibility these were slips or wrestling toss-downs for the most part, although Munroe did take counts.

It is amazing how much this report varies from the one in the Brooklyn Eagle the next day.

 

This is from the Anaconda Standard, 12-24-1903. Munroe was returning to Butte to fight Mike Sullivan and the author recalls the fight with Jeffries:

"The contest took place at Button's Broadway Theatre Saturday night, December 20, 1902. It was a memorable night. The house was packed. The big boilermaker sneeringly recieved the man who thought he could stand up before him for four rounds. Munroe was not at all frightened. He went after the champion in great shape, and---when the second round had been concluded, Bob Fitzsimmons, who was in Jeffries' corner said to the champion, 'Jim, this fellow is no dub. You will have to go after him. Don't you see he is winding you."
Jeffries affected indifference and replied he would finish his man in the third round. He nearly did so, too, and by a dirty foul. A few seconds before the gong sounded the men clinched and Jeffries deliberately struck Munroe a vicious blow in the 'breadbasket'. Jack went down and it looked as if it was all over with him. The crowd which had hooted and jeered at the foul, arose as one man gave cheer after cheer for the plucky miner who was being taken to his corner to get wind enough to stay one more round.
When the fourth round opened, Munroe was weak. He was game, though, and kept giving back for what he took. More than once he went down to avoid punishment, but every time he got up he came back stronger. How Jeffries did hit and jab and how he did work, doing all he knew how, as he realized that the time limit for the vanquishing of his opponent was drawing near. He was flushed and winded, and he was wild with rage. Munroe could see it all and keeping his head, staved off the big fellow until finally the gone rang and Jack Munroe had suddenly become famous. He had stayed four rounds with the champion of the world and had won $100."

 

my comments:

1. Nothing about Jeff being down or hurt.

2. The dirty foul bit is most interesting. The quotes around breadbasket is from the original. Certainly a blow to the stomach would not seem to be a dirty foul. I think there is probably the implication that "breadbasket" refers to the lower abdoman and the groin. Otherwise, this doesn't make much sense. I would guess that Jeff named the referee and if the "victim" proved troubling was willing to do whatever was necessary to hold onto the money while his referee looked the other way. The burning stuff Sonny Liston later used on his gloves had probably not been invented yet.

 

Do we take it that Jeffries DID NOT RETIRE UNDEFEATED THEN?

 

Hi Janitor,

In a way, Jeffries career was similar to Marcianos, in that both of
them appeared to have crude styles early on, but later on their
boxing styles were a bit more polished.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

Here's how Munroe recalled that fight about a month later (as quoted in one Utah newspaper).


"I got into the ring and put a pair of boxing gloves on for the first time in two years," said Jack Munroe of Butte regarding his now famous fight with Jeffries, to a New York reporter. "Jeffries was in the other corner, glaring at me as if he intended to make me jump out of the ring. I didn't mind that, but when he got up at the bell and came swaggering over to my corner, grinning at me as if I was easy, it made me mad. He came over as confidently as if all he had to do was to eat a piece of pie. He didn't take the trouble to crouch--just stood up straight.

"I stood in my corner waiting with my mind made up to strike the first blow. He came right up to me, with his guard held carelessly.

"I saw his guard was too low and I hooked my right over as hard as I could. It caught him right under the ear. For a moment Jeff stood there with the silliest, most stupid look on his face I ever saw. Did you ever see a man straighten up suddenly and bang his head on a low beam or a table or something? He looked as if he did just that.

Jeffries Became Furious.

"But in the second round he was wild. Fitz had been yelling and waving his hands over in Jeff's corner and giving him advice. When the bell rang Jeff jumped up and ran at me. I didn't feel excited at all. I just mixed it up with him or clinches when I had to. In the middle of the round, he seemed to get furious because he couldn't land on me when I was either running or blocking or clinching.

"The referee had just told us to break from a clinch.

"I let go and was about to step back, with my two arms still lying across Jeffries' shoulders and my muscles all relaxed, when Jeff suddenly punched me in the pit of the stomach with his right and as I went down followed on the same spot with the left. That was the only time he knocked me down in the whole fight.

"Bite Him, Jeff!" Crowd Yelled.

"It was a foul blow, and the whole crowd yelled and hissed.
"I heard some of the boys yell: 'Bite him, Jeff! Why don't you kick him while he's down?' and other things.

"When I got up Jeff rushed me right away. I clinched, and on the break he tried the trick again. In fact he fouled me that way all through the second and third rounds.

"Near the end of the second round I got my chance.

"Jeffries reached for me with a left hook, and he seemed to be slowing up.
"Anyway, I stepped in toward him and let the blow go over my neck. At the same time I drove my right against his ribs over the heart as hard as I knew how.

"Jeffries staggered against the ropes, which kept him from falling on his back. Then his legs gave way and he dropped over forward on his knees. He couldn't stand straight when he got up and didn't seem to be able to move his legs. Before I could take advantage of the chance the bell rang. Jeff reeled to his corner.

Found Jeffries Easy to Hit.

"Jeff tried to rough me out of it all through the third round, and I gave him a little football work. I retaliated as well as I could at his own game, but I didn't know how to hit in clinches and breaks. He had the better of me. But by the end of the round he was in bad shape. I never saw a man so slow as he was when he came out for the fourth. Of course, it was bad condition that made him go so soon. He couldn't walk straight, and he didn't seem to be able to punch very hard. I felt strong, and I was sure I could last, so I cut loose.

"For all of that last round it was easy to hit Jeff. He was too weak to rough it in the clinches and he gave up hitting in the breaks."

 

I will be most interested in Mendoza's reaction to this report by Munroe !