Let's talk about James Jeffries

Thanks for printing this, Senya.

Munroe claiming he knocked Jeffries down would be of no value EXCEPT that some ringside reports from Butte also said as much, which makes it very hard to shrug off.

I would note that all the reports of a knockdown are consistent in saying that Jeffries went to his knees.

 

What a fighter says, and what the newspapers say are not always the same! The nut of the match is under modern Rules, Jeffries wins the 4 round match by at least 5 points due to Munore going down several times. Munroe did not win in the conventional way, he only lasted 4 rounds and collected a prize.

Munroe says he was only down once, yet the papers say he was down several times. Whom do you believe? The fighter or multiple sources?

I do not think Jeffries trained or took Munroe seriously in the exhibition match. In the real match, Jeffries smoked Munroe the way a champion should dust off a fringe contender-to-contender type.

Weather Munroe scored the lone KD of Jeffries career ( omit the 1910 Johnson fight ) is interesting point. Some papers say yes, others say no. The Bute Miner, which is the primary source says no, and Seyna added that Jeffries repeated several times to the press that he was not down. If Jeffries was indeed down, he takes a huge credibility hit because many would have seen it. My conclusion on the given data is Munroe did not score a knock down.

-Milwaukee Evening Wisconsin. August 27, 1904​

JEFF TALKS OF FIGHT​

SAYS HE WENT IN TO AVENGE MINER'S INSULTS​

TELLS HIS SIDE OF BUTTE GO​

Had Munroe Knocked Out, but Time Was Cut-Back to the Mines for the Defeated One.
​

James J. Jeffries was the central figure of a merry gathering in Harry Corbett's this afternoon. He was surrounded by Los Angeles friends who were bidding him "good bye" before leaving for home...​

Jeffries was diffident about recurring to last night's mill. He said that licking Munroe was easier than sparring four rounds with "Brother Jack" or Joe Kennedy. He admitted h was sore with his opponent and that he felt a satisfaction in "cuffing the miner man."​

"Who wouldn't be spiteful under the circumstances?" Munroe did not tell the truth about that affair in Butte. He permitted fellows who had him in charge to distort things worse than he did and in my opinion he was entirely to blame for the false reports sent out. ..Munroe was knocked out fairly by a body punch in the third round, but his friends, who were running the match cut the round short and had him carried to his corner. ​

...there were lots of persons around the country who really thought I was trying to avoid Munroe. Slurs were passed in my hearing. ...I certainly did make a grudge fight of it, but even at that he got off luckily. If Graney hadn't stepped in just when he did , I was going to work a left shift on Munroe and he wouldn't have come back from that punch in a hurry. I am willing to admit that for once I had no sympathy for my opponent.​

-W.W. Naughton. San Francisco Chronicle August 28, 1094​

 

I have seven clippings in my files – ringside reports from the Butte Miner and the Butte Inter-Mountain, and none of them report Jeff being knocked down, or even slipping to his knees, during the exhibition. Munroe’s goal was to stay four-rounds and win $500, and he succeeded against a Jeffries both newspapers report was “hog fat.”

I don’t have the capacity to scan articles, but I have copied this excerpt from the Butte Miner, page 12/27/1902 at page 12, which addresses the allegation made in wire reports, such as that from the Eagle, that Munroe dominated Jeffries or knocked him down:

“. . .It is even stated by some of the eastern papers that have been coming in during the last two days that Munroe had Jeffries ‘going;’ also that he sent Jeffries to his knees. The reports make it appear that Munroe was the equal a week ago tonight of Jeffries.

These are not the facts of the case. At no time did Munroe have the champion going, or anything like it. . .”

The ringside reports all agree that Jeffries went into the exhibition thinking he had an easy bout. But Munroe had trained hard for the exhibition and showed up in great shape. These papers say Jeffries “let Munroe down easy” in the first round – apparently because Fitzsimmons and stopped his local opponent quickly and he wanted to give the fans a show. Munroe, however, did well in the second round, landed several punches, and was a “veritable surprise” to Jeffries.

Jeffries came out in the third round looking to stop Munroe and, in fact, sent Munroe to his knees “several times.” Munroe “took advantage of the count and rested up.” The Miner says that Jeffries had Munroe nearly out at the end of the third, but he was revived by his corner between rounds and came out for the fourth completely recovered.

Jeffries was “puffing like a quarter horse” in the fourth, and tried to take Munroe out with one “sledgehammer” punch. But “Munroe was playing for time and hugged the big fellow until shaken off.” The fighters were exchanging punches at the bell.

So, again . . . NO – Munroe never dropped Jeffries. But Munroe had a darned good press agent who got the word out that he did.

 

"Munroe had a darned good press agent who got the word out that he did."

It is strange that an unknown fighter had a press agent at all. Clearly, whoever sent the account to the Times the night of the fight seems to have seen Jeffries on his knees. I wasn't there, so I don't know. I don't think either Munroe or Jeffries should be viewed as reliable sources. The next day report of Jeffries going to his knees is rather hard to shrug off. One thing bothers me. If Jeff took violent issue with having been knocked down, why didn't the New York papers do what I did--get in touch with Butte--and talk to a fair reporter who was at ringside? It is interesting that the "lie" about Jeff being knocked down carried the day as later reports make clear.

As I said in an earlier post, I am getting several pages of coverage from the Butte and Anaconda public libraries through snail mail and I will post them when I get them.

 

OLD FOGEY,

We are talking about Butte Montana in 1902. Was there even a telephone in the town? It would not be easy for NY papers to talk to Butte to check the sources. Someone could have sent a wire report, and the editor at NY Times would simply print it.

Post the good stuff once the snail man delivers the goods.

 

They had the telegraph. They could have gotten in touch. They could also ask for a copy of the edition with the fight report to be sent through the mail.

Your argument that the New York Times or any other newspaper prints just any report without knowing the correspondent is simply blowing smoke. They would have been wide open for hoaxes.

 

Old Fogey & Mendoza,

You guys are great!!! This has turned into a great discussion about
the alleged knockdown that Jeffries suffered at the hands of Munroe.

I too would like to know what happened in that exhibition.

BTW, traditionally, if a heavyweight champion was ever KOED in an
exhibition match, the winner could claim hvwt champion status.


Grebfan9
www.firstroundboxing.com

 

OLD FOGEY,

My take is the NY Times could have checked the facts, but didn't. Much of the wire reports were not checked for accuracy, which is why a common error could " Mushroom " up.

Jeffries claimed Munroe’s people were full of it regarding the knockdown.

When the Butte Report arrives, post it side by side with the NY times….you’ll see what I’m talking about. My prediction is the wire report ( NY Times ) will differ from the original source ( Butte Miner ). When this happens, I go with the original source.

Also, I love to hear about Fitzsimmons who was also on tour with Jeffries.

Thanks.

 

I beleive Jeffries may have been off his feet,but due to being temporarily unbalanced Nat Fleischer's account, states that jeffries was well out of shape and dint take the proceedings seriously.Munroe whatever his shortcomings ,and I think he had plenty ,could apparently hit a bit,its possible a half push /punch momentarily floored the mighty Jeff,and because 1 Jeffries was known as indestructible and 2 Pollack ,Jefffries manager with a combination of hyperbole and down right lies blew things up out of all proportion.I don't think Jeffries credibilty takes a serious hit really.Charley Mitchell fleetingly floored Sullivan,and that was in a real fight .Jeffries took his eye off the ball ,so to speak and was temporarily embarrassed,he put things to rights in the real fight
if you can call it that.

 

What's the point quoting Nat Fleischer's account, when Fleischer's books are filled with hundreds of errors or lies?

 

Mendoza--you are probably totally right, but I am going to try to get to the bottom of it. There seems to be more here than meets the eye. The report from the Anaconda Library has arrived and it is exactly the same as Senya posted in Post #83 above. Off this report, Munroe's only real accomplishment was lasting the distance. No mention is made of Jeffries being down or hurt or of a foul, although the Anaconda Standard made a big deal about the foul a year later as I posted.

 

Of course newpapers clippings from little out of the way towns are allways spot on and 100% accurate.It's times like these I'm glad you are in Russia.

 

I'll believe next day wire from a newspaper across the USA from the place where the fight was held, than believe a money-maker journalist who never quotes his sources and is known for having a whole lot of factual errors in every book of his.

 

That is why I am digging. I would just like to come as close to the actual truth as possible.

The gist of the fight report from the Anaconda Standard was printed by Senya in post #83 above. Other pieces of the report which give some info:

HE HAD JEFF GOING (that is the headline and frankly, nothing in the story actually backs it up, which is odd to me)

CHAMPION PUGILIST OF WORLD FAILS TO PUT JACK MUNROE AWAY IN FOUR ROUNDS (second headline)

MINER WINS TWO HUNDRED (third headline)

EXHIBITION BY BOILER MAKER AND FITZSIMMONS WITNESSED BY 1,500 MEN AND FIVE WOMEN. CROWD GOES WILD WHEN BUTTE MAN STAYS LIMIT. "LANKY BOB" AND THE LEADING MAN SPAR FOUR TAME ROUNDS. WHILE JACK STEWART GOES AGAINST CORNISHMAN--LAFONTAINE BEATS FLYNN (final headline)

"Jack Munroe, a miner in the Anaconda mine, who claims the title of amateur champion heavyweight of the Pacific Coast, was given the decision over James J Jeffries, champion of the world, in four rounds at the Broadway theater last night. The decision was well earned. Jeffries had declared that if he could not stop Munroe in four rounds he would forfeit $200. He failed to stop the local man and Referee Duncan McDonald had nothing to do but give the decision to Munroe. When the gone sounded calling the fourth round at an end and before McDonald had time to announce that Munroe was the winner, the 1,500 spectators, including 5 women, were on their feet and shouting like wild. Men waved their hats and jumped up and down for joy. The women not only applauded liberally, but forgot their feminine dignity and shouted. The walls of the theater never resounded with such unstinted and vociferous commendation as last night."

If anyone is curious, here is the part dealing with Fitz's bout:

"The less said about the go between Fitzsimmons and Stewart the better. One thing can be said of Stewart, and that is that he had nerve--to go into the ring--and then all has been said. Fitz hit Stewart three times, flooring him twice, the second time for a knockout that was optional with the floored man. He could have gotten to his feet had he wanted to but he had had enough. Referee McDonald took in the situation at a glance and wisely sent Fitz to his corner and called to Stewart's seconds to take their man out."

 

Nat can do no wrong ,what do you RusKies know?