Let's talk about Larry Holmes

Aside from bodypunching and inside fighting as well. Ali went to the body as many times in his entire career that I can count on two hands. One of the reasons Ali struggled during the 70's was his inability to fight inside. He became more flat-footed and his opponents were able to close the distance, Frazier especially.

Holmes wasn't excpetional inside like Frazier and Tyson, but he was comfortable in there.

Liston could never outjab Holmes. His jab output was nowhere near as high, and it wasn't as quick either. Holmes could throw the jab from down past the waist or shoulder height. I see Liston being a very tough fight for Holmes over 15 rounds, but not quick enough on the outside to outbox him. Liston's power and persistance would be meal tickets.

Holmes #3 ATG

 

Subject to continual revision:

1)[Three - way tie] Dempsey (of Toledo)/Ali (of Folley and Cleveland Williams)/Holmes (of Shavers I, Cooney and Cobb)

4)[Tie] Louis/Frazier

6)[Tie] Charles/Marciano/Corbett/Jack Johnson/Tunney

With Eddie Futch in his corner, the peak Larry Holmes would have likely carried out an attack on the Ali of the Folley fight consisting of counterjabbing to throw Muhammad off his rhythym, singular points accumulating bodyshots from outside, stand his ground to take away Ali's movement (much as Folley did), and make full use of Ali's willingness to give away bodyshots to score an upset points verdict.

Holmes would have probably had to get off the deck to do it, but he had the defensive skills to largely neutralize Dempsey's hook, to score another decision win. Louis simply wouldn't have caught the Holmes of the first Shavers win. Where Frazier is concerned, Larry knew how to neutralize Smoke's left hook, and could tie him up inside, much as Ali frequently did. Holmes was a better defensive boxer than Muhammad, more in the mold of Jack Johnson than Ali. (Unlike Lil' Artha, Big Jack did not loaf, keeping his jab working continually, if nothing else.)

I would have liked to see Holmes rematch Witherspoon in a 15 rounder. The biggest threat to his reign among those he did not defend against was Needles Thomas. He was the predominent jabber among the heavyweight contenders during Larry's reign, and Holmes would have benefited greatly from Eddie Futch's guidance in dealing with it.

Worst performances? Coming in obviously overtrained for Witherspoon, rusty and misfiring for Tyson, and Holyfield (thanks in part to a lost contact lens).

Best performances? His 12 round shutout in Shavers I (winning 34 out of 36 minutes), his 15 round shutouts against Berbick and Cobb, his Liston impression against Ocasio (nearly putting Jaws away for the full count with his first knockdown punch, a devastating jab), his showing in the first seven rounds against Norton (a very difficult opponent to outbox cleanly), and his one punch knockout against Evangelista. (Alfredo may be remembered as a joke today, but in 78 fights over a dozen years, only Holmes, Leon Spinks at his absolute best, an undefeated Greg Page, and super heavyweight Anders Eklund were ever able to take him out.) Unlike Holmes, Leon needed to produce the very best combination of his entire career to dispatch Evangelists. (That's the clip to use when asking how good Leon might have been with the right approach. At the very least, he could have been the CW division's first HOFer.) I felt that Larry's decision win over Mercer was more impressive than Foreman's over Moorer, because Holmes had to dominate Ray over the distance to do it. Larry also requested that his bout with Mercer be for 12 rounds, rather than ten, something I think he deserves enormous credit for.

Michaer Moorer was a former LHW, who had been dropped twice by Cooper, and in his previous bout against Holyfield, before Big George iced him with a single right hand, in a match which MM had done all the work and was dominating, and had won on two of the three scorecards. Foreman needed just one punch to take it, something Larry could never do against Mercer. Ray had been badly outboxed before by Damiani and Morrison, but Larry finished the job against a strong natural undefeated natural heavyweight who appeared possibly impervious to damage, an immovable object. Going in against Foreman, Cooper and Holyfield had already exposed Moorer's vulnerability to a hard punch. I think it's harder to out box an undefeated world class opponent over a longer distance at an advanced age, than it is to take one out with a single punch who has previously been exposed as having a questionable chin. (Ergo, I thought that Larry had a better chance of dethroning Evander than George did.)

Regarding Liston's chances against Holmes, Sonny's jab would simply not match the speed of Larry's. Holmes had the skill to neutralize the Liston hook. Larry has demonstrated his tremendous native intelligence through his business successes outside the boxing ring, as well as the way he outboxed Norton through the first half of their classic, the calculating manner in which he set up Weaver for that monstrous right uppercut in their first meeting, the joyful guile with which he schooled Mercer, and the alert body attack against Carl Williams he used to sew up his final successful title defense.

When Snipes unexpectedly ambushed Holmes with his punch of a career, Larry quickly recovered, and adapted well enough to actually win the remainder of that round (as he did after getting up against Shavers).

A fine boxer, who shut out a number of world class opponents. The first undefeated boxer to win 20 consecutive championship fights, and the first boxer to successfully defend his championship in eight consecutive calendar years. Also, the first champion to defend his title against 20 different challengers.

 

I'm not entirely sold on this. Certainly, Sonny had the consistently hardest jab of all-time. That can hardly be disputed. But was it harder that what Holmes used against Ossie Ocasio?

Liston wore eight ounce gloves during his career. Although I'm not absolutely positive about this, I believe Larry was using ten ounce gloves for his match with Ocasio. (On that undercard, Shavers and Norton were wearing ten ounce gloves, so it's reasonable to assume Holmes and Jaws were too.) Larry blew hot and cold with his jab. Sometimes it was merely a flicking blow, especially when he was in transit mode. But against undefeated future CW champion Ocasio, Holmes used it as a ramrod, stalking forward against Jaws, stunning him with it, then dumping Ossie on the deck for the first time in his professional career with it. Jaws barely beat the count. Two fights later, Ocasio would be robbed of a decision win against Mike Dokes. Did Sonny ever lay anybody the calibre of Ocasio out with his jab?

Holmes/Ocasio is readily available in it's entirety on-line. Having previously viewed Liston/Clark and Martin/Liston in living color, from beginning to end, I'm not absolutely convinced that Sonny's jab was harder than what Holmes whacked Jaws with.

 

I can certainly appreciate your attempt to make a fair analysis, but can you honestly tell me that using Holmes fight with a boxer like Ossie Ocasio is the best way to do it?

 

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The hilghted quote above, is what I prefer to base my response on. I have read the rest of your response, and agree with some of it, but I think you said it best by pointing out that Holmes was the faster of the two. Holmes jab would dominate in this matchup in my opinion. I can't think of any all time great heavyweight who had a better jab than larry Holmes. Believe it or not, this very matchup appeared in the ring magazine around 1991, or thereabouts. Gill Clancy said " no one out jabbed Larry ", and frankly I agree with him. Holmes, while probably having less power than Liston in the jab, had more speed, frequency and accuracy. I also disagree with your claim that Liston's powerful jab would influence Holmes into abandoning its use, given that he was a fighter who seldomly dropped the use of the jab, even after being pounded by some of the hardest hitters of all time.

I'll have to respond to the rest later.



Here we must part ways. Look at Lyle. He smashed Foreman all over the ring, but tended to go the distance when in with a quality fighter (As opposed to a massive pucher who rellied on strength and power).

The reason is the same as the difference between great sluggers and great composite punhcers. A slugger is on a punchers chance against a great fighter like Holmes. A great composite puncher can hit accuratley and often from good angles in a variety of ways with a variety of shots also with great power. Smart guys, good posters, including yourself, often seem to confuse the two. They have nothing in common apart from they hit hard.



Williams, Valdes, DeJohn were all over 200, Folly Harris and Machen were all there or thereabouts and Liston also has a surprising number of decent wins after Ali which also sees him beat fighters over that weight. But I don't really care about weight, never have. To me it is just another factor to be overcome.





I would like to see you take another look at what Liston did before coming to the title. I'm not as hard on Patterson as some for fighting Liston so late he was involved in that thrilling trilogy with Johansson, but Liston was champ in waiting and basically blew up all the guys Patterson might have been fighting.[/quote]

 

Just thought I'd put this in here, but I just watched a documentary on Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney and I must said I thought the way they treated him was disgusting. They introduced the champion before the challenger violating boxing tradition. Completely uncalled for and I'd love to know why they did that. Plus the phoneline installed in Cooney's dressing room from the presiden but not in Holmes. Horrible.

 

That is disgusting.

As though Cooney had all that much chance anyway. Don't send a man with a hook to do what a good overhand right should do. Give Coetzee a US passport, have him denounce aparthied and send him in!

 

Ha.

There's the right hand.

 

The only thing missing is a weird eyed toad taking the place of Holmes! :rasta

 

I rank Holmes at 4, after Louis, Ali, and Marciano. IMO his best performances were Shavers I, Cooney, Ali (might have been if he went all out instead of sparring Ali and carrying him), and Mercer. His worst were Spinks I, Weaver I (he landed a smashing uppercut though, and proved he could slug it out if need be), and David Bey. IMO his hardest punches landed were Weaver I (the uppercut), Weaver II (the straight right that proved to have the same effect as the uppercut), Curtis Shepard (right cross), and Evangelista (right hook). Holmes usually fought up or down to the level of competion. Like against Norton, Shavers, Mercer and Cooney he performed great, but against LeDoux, Bey, Frank, and Frazier (he was slow and in accurate) he looked like crap. He had the best heavyweight jab of all time IMO. It was nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali's, yet nearly as powerful as Liston's. He would hit you 20-30 times with it a round, hurting you, and busting you up. Breaking your nose, swelling you up, cutting you up. He had a very powerful right uppercut and right cross/straight/hook. His right alone was powerful. He nearly dropped Berbick with it, and it was starting to rock Mercer. IMO head-head, he does very well if its the him that was in the Cooney, Norton, or Shavers fight. Holmes had a style to trouble anyone, and was one of the most complete fighters of all time, having an iron jaw, great recooperative powers, fast, had pretty good pop, great foot work when he used it, good combo's when he used them, and he had excellent stamina.