Let's talk about Larry Holmes

I only wanted to raise the notion, rather than absolutely concede the edge in jabbing power to Liston. Larry's jab was clearly at it's most damaging against Jaws.

Sonny was credited with putting Wayne Bethea out with his jab, but the footage indicates that it may have actually been a long hook which did the job in that one. Holmes weighed less for Ocasio than Ossie himself weighed for his knockout loss to Gardner, the final bout Jaws had before entering the cruiserweight ranks.

 

I thought Ocasio's first round KO loss to Dokes was the last fight before calling it quits at heavyweight, but apparently I'll have to go back and check. At anyrate, I'm a bigger fan of Larry's jab than I am Liston's although both were great.

 

Everything seems ok now.

 

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It's only an idea, a doubt I wanted to raise for consideration, rather than simply have viewers of our posts take the superiority of power in Sonny's jab for granted.

Jimmy Young was no kind of bomber, but he did follow up his second loss to Jaws by punching out Wendell Bailey in three rounds, and his left jab was also his bread and butter punch. As ineffectual as his power may have been, Jimmy was probably hitting at his hardest at the time he faced Ocasio. Going into his HW title challenge, Ossie had twenty consecutive competitive rounds of preparation for learning how to deal with an excellent jab.

Prior to his first match with Young, Ocasio decisioned Kevin Isaac, who was coming off a ten round win over Joe Alexander, and had faced Lyle, Stan Ward and Holmes himself previously. Jaws surely gained a wealth of experience in the 30 rounds of action he engaged in leading up to his challenge of Holmes. Naturally, he would have been in top condition for his shot at Larry, and fresh off that second conquest of Young, as sharp as possible.

Once again, it bears repeating that in Ossie's very next performance against a live opponent, he outshined Mike Dokes in handing Dynamite his first career blemish.

JT, to assert that Ocasio would fall over in a stiff breeze based on the outcome of the Dokes rematch is akin to making the same dismissive claim about Eddie Machen, based on Ingo's annihilation of Eddie. Both episodes were isolated incidents, not regular occurrances.

During the course of Ocasio's career, he would go 15 with Crous, ten with Qawi (winning), 11 with Holyfield, 20 with Coetzer (going 1-1 in Pierre's SA), the eight round distance with Mercer, the ten round distance with 1984 Olympic SHW Gold Medalist Tyrell Biggs, the eight round distance with deadly unbeaten future WBA HW Champion Bruce Seldon, the eight round distance with Lennox Lewis, the ten round distance with Carl Williams, and close out his career by lasting into round eight with fast starting Alex Garcia. The most damaging loss on Ossie's record after the Dokes rematch was against a peaking John L. Gardner in London, with John L. having just won the EBU HW Title over Zanon. Fighting before a hostile crowd, Jaws did manage to last a round longer than Lorenzo was able to do. With 29 knockouts in 35 wins, Gardner could obviously hit when he was able to connect.

Does all that resemble the profile of a boxer who would fall over in a stiff breeze? I submit that the notion of Ocasio being chinny is based on the fact of what Larry did to Jaws with his jab. Ossie went the distance with too many powerpunching and effective hitting championship class superheavyweights for me to describe him as vulnerable to a stiff breeze. I give the Holmes jab full credit for doing to Ocasio what Qawi,The Truth, Coetzer, Biggs, Mercer, Seldon and Lennox could not do with any punch in their formidable and skilled arsenals.

What champion and potential HOFer did Liston drop and eliminate with the power of his jab, who measures up to Ocasio?

 

Please do that. It would be good to have double confirmation of my information, or have a question raised about it's accuracy.

After Dokes blew Jaws out in their rematch, the next match I vividly remember viewing of Ocasio's was when Ossie outboxed talented Randy Stephens beautifully over 15 rounds in defense of his WBA CW Title. A very impressed Larry Holmes was providing color commentary on the broadcast as Jaws floated about the ring, and continually delivered fluidly graceful combinations whenever he went on the offensive. His objective was clearly to outscore Stephens, not to try for a knockout, but Ocasio's performance was mesmerizing rather than boring. The contrast between the cruiserweight Jaws and the younger heavyweight Ossie made him look like two different competitors entirely, and Holmes enthusiastically praised the changes in his perfomance at the lighter weight. I do not remember Jaws ever throwing singular punches in that one (although it's been many moons since I watched it).

Personally, I would like to see Ocasio get some HOF recognition, as a demonstration of how beneficial a move down in weight can be to the success, recognition and extension of one's boxing career.

 

Well to be honest it's a given Liston's jab is heavier than Holmes, the man used to bust people up bad with that thing. Over the course of many bouts for both Liston's jab is shown to be harder, just as it's easy to decipher Holmes being faster.

Wendell Who? Lets be straight again, Young's jab isn't a patch on Holmes and he was NEVER ever any sort of noted puncher, quite the opposite. 11 stoppages in 34 fights at one stage having just 1 stoppage in 9 fights.

In the general scheme of top heavyweights of the day Occasio was pretty crap, pure and simple. His best showings were over a young raw and maturing Dokes who was noted in the featherfists of the year award and the lighthitting Young. He actually fought Dokes AFTER the Holmes fight, and in the immediate rematch Dokes put him away in 1 round.

Alaready addressed, a Dokes yet to discover power, tho he found it in the rematch and hammered Jaws in but one round.

Dokes was considered featherfisted going into the rematch and his power was extremely dubious.

Plenty of cruiserweight bouts, and many others against young raw up and comers. Occasio was cute no doubt, and LATTER experience bode him ok against these young guys. When opened up tho it's less impressive than it seems. Lewis had 11 fights, Mercer 11, Seldon 12 etc etc.

It's all about class levels, Holmes is one of the greatest Heavies to ever lace a glove and at the peak of his game, that's the difference here. Certainly not the power of Holmes jab.

Lets not talk like it is peak Lewis and co. A guy called Levi Billups went 10 with Lewis a full 7 fights after Occasio, and Billups had been oft ko'ed. I give Holmes credit as a great fighter for blowing out Occasio. Sure it showed he had a fantastic jab, but that jab didn't do anything like the damage to others it did to Occasio. He was overwhelmed by the total package. SRL dropped Benitez with a jab, how about we elevate his jab to the hardest in 147 history? One night doesn't answer all.

Liston belted the **** out of most every guy he ever fought with that hammer jab. You seem keen to boast up Occasio's credentials at every turn, but the guy really is not that special mate. He was terribly underweight for a heavyweight and that's why he went back to 190. He was reasonably strong at 190 and quite average at Heavy. He just wasn't a top level Heavy. As i say, kudo's to Holmes for blowing him out, tho he could have done it even faster. Occasio was made for Larry, absolutely made for him.

 

Oh, sorry it took me so long to come back to this Duo, been meaning to for ages mate. Kept slipping the mind or being put off as i knew my reply would be pretty long.

 

No problem at all. The delay allowed you to formulate an excellent and well-articulated reply.

Obviously, my objective was to put a particular spin on Holmes/Ocasio for you to respond to, and your informed reply was certainly worth the wait.

I remember that Dokes playfully took KO Magazine to task for them awarding him their "Featherfist of the Year" award, and they told him that in the unlikely event he managed to win the HW Title in a single round, they'd take it back. Thanks to a skittish Joey Curtis (overreacting in the immediate aftermath of Mancini/Kim), that's exactly what Dokes managed.

Now, I will come right out and confess that I actually am in large agreement with your conclusions. Ocasio was largely an isolated incident in Larry's early championship career, but it did demonstrate that when he chose to stalk an opponent, and use his jab as a hurtful weapon, he did have the capacity to hurt a world class competitor with it. No, Jaws was not in the same class as Norton, Shavers, Weaver or Page, but he was a competent up and comer, who really did deserve the decision in his first bout with Dokes, who although derided as having no power at the time, was also acknowledged as a talented young full sized heavyweight with fast hands and excellent skills. Yet, Ocasio outboxed and outslugged the larger Dokes in their first meeting.

Mike Dokes had gift draws with Ocasio and Weaver, settled for a split decision in the first bout with Cobb, and got taken out by Holyfield in a ten round classic. Holmes shut out Tex over 15, defeated Hercules with a single punch twice, and took a peak Holyfield the distance.

I don't think Weaver would have ever beaten Holmes, as Larry demonstrated over two decades later. He simply had Mike's number. A rematch in this instance would have only been merited as a formal title unification opportunity where Weaver's knockout of Tate essentially established Larry's status as such in the public's mind anyways. Page lost very badly to a screwy and wildly inconsistent Berbick who had recently been shut out by Holmes over 15. While I would have liked to have seen Holmes/Page, I believe that would have been a rather one sided decision for Larry.

From my perpective, the two glaring omissions on the Holmes resume are a 15 round rematch with Witherspoon, and a 15 round showdown with Thomas. Larry himself has been quoted as claiming that Dokes would have been the toughest challenge which he did not meet in combat, but I don't buy that, as Dokes had broad shoulders, but much shorter arms than Holmes.

I rate Larry's legacy over Marciano's on the strength of Holmes being the HW champion for eight years and 20 title defenses. I don't think Rocky could have done that, withstanding being the principle heavyweight target for such an interval, instead of an avoided contender.

Holmes was obviously stale and overtrained for Witherspoon, wanting to produce a stoppage win that he hadn't achieved for a while. In a 15 round rematch, I believe he would have purposely boxed for a decision win, and succeeded handily.

Pinklon Thomas would have been very interesting. As Holmes was more of a two fisted performer, I think he'd have had the edge, but this was the potential pairing which would have resulted in the least predictable outcome, at least in my estimation.

 

It's fine to say that Holmes was better than Weaver, but basing that among others on their fight when they were in their 50's? Come on, that's completely irrelevant. It's like saying Leonard is better than Duran because he won their third match. What if Weaver manages to push Holmes out of his wheelchair when they enter the retirement home, would it be 2-1 then?

About Marciano, it's true that he didn't reign for 8 years like Holmes. However, there are some points to note when comparing the two reigns:
1. Marciano faced better opposition despite fighting during a period twice as short.

2. Marciano never had to be lucky to receive the decision as Holmes was in Norton, Witherspoon and Williams. I don't think Norton deserved the verdict, but boxers have gotten the win for much lesser performances. The Witherspoon and Williams fights were dead-even, though.

3. Whenever there was any doubt who was the best, Marciano always gave rematches (Walcott, Charles, Lastarza) and knocked them out in one-sided fashion. Holmes avoided fighters like the plague who gave him trouble. A 14 fight green Witherspoon was supposed to be a walkover. Why refuse to give the young challenger a rematch for all those years, even when he keeps consistently winning? Not championship behaviour...

4. Marciano faced all the best contenders that were out there, five times the #1 contender and one time the #2 contender. Holmes did not face the best competition at all. He failed to meet Page, Thomas, Coetzee and Dokes. Yes, they were inconsistent , with the exception of Thomas, but that wasn't known at the time. It's not like Holmes said "You have definitely deserved a title shot and some of you i will have to face or drop my only title belt, but if i duck you, you're going to lose a fight within 2 years, hence, it is justified that i keep on fighting 13-0 David Bey's and Randall Cobb's". You could argue that Marciano should've fought Valdes who was the #1 contender for a brief period, but Marciano was busy with rematches at that time (an excuse that Holmes doesn't have, for obvious reasons).

 

True, but the fact remains that Larry did it to Hercules with a single right hand twice. The punch is usually the last thing to go, and Larry's last three opponents could certainly punch.

Agreed.

Larry should have had the Norton match wrapped up on the scorecards at the end of ten rounds. He also clearly deserved the verdict in the rematch with Mike Spinks, and was nearly the victim of obscenely biased scoring against Cooney. The argument can be made that he was robbed in every decision loss on his record except for Holyfield. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. As for Williams and Witherspoon, it was Holmes performing as if he was the challenger, not them.

No, but defending against 20 different challengers is. That Witherspoon performed as well as he did is a tremendous credit to him, but he didn't "take" the title from the champion as a successful challenger should. Frankly, I agree that 'Spoon hadn't done enough to deserve a shot at Holmes yet, and that Snipes was robbed of the decision against him. It's only as a result of his performance against Larry that he became a top contender. I agree that he deserved a rematch, but this time over the 15 round distance. (It would have been a major travesty for Larry to lose his title over 12.)

At the time, Holmes was filmed picketing with protesters against South Africa's apartheid regime, even immediately after Coetzee's losses to Tate and Weaver knocked him temporarily out of contention. So he wasn't using SA's politics merely as an excuse for avoiding Coetzee. Dokes was a good friend of his (much like Frazier was with Norton), so a sense of tense rivalry wasn't present between them where the public was concerned. Bey had just won the USBA title from Page, so I don't have a problem with him challenging Holmes. Tex Cobb had beaten Mercado and Shavers, and lost split decisions to Norton and Dokes (at a time when Dokes was widely considered to be the second best heavyweight in the world). That Holmes shut Cobb out over 15 rounds is a representation of his ridiculous superiority over the rest of the division in November, 1982. (From March, 1978 to March 1983, Larry could have beaten anybody. Marciano's entire active reign only lasted three years.)

Larry defended his title against ten undefeated challengers. He stepped in the ring with 14 undefeated opponents in 15 matches, and can be argued to have deserved the win in all but two of those fights. (Tyson and Holyfield.)

Marciano was slammed in some quarters for beating up on undersized or overaged opponents. Holmes was attacked for giving "green" challengers a shot, but many of them went on to win, or at least challenge for other titles. Not the greatest legacy, but hardly the worst. Nobody asked who the real champion was while he remained undefeated, a far cry from the situation we have today. Berbick, Norton, Page, Coetzee, Douglas, Tubbs, Tucker, Leon Spinks, Thomas, Witherspoon, Tate and Dokes all had a chance to hold onto a title during Larry's championship run, and none succeeded. Thanks to Holmes, there was no equivalent of the "Seven Year Famine" which the HW division was mired in between Tunney and Louis. The heavyweight division had a steady champion between Ali and Tyson, and he lead the division when boxing was at its latter day peak of popularity. The early 1980's may have been the best time to be a boxing champion. Today, nobody cares anymore. Like him or hate him, at least Larry kept people caring about HW boxing after Ali exited the stage.

 

Fair enough, i don't think we'll ever agree on this. I would like to reply to one last part of your post though:

Not many people care about boxing today, no doubt about it. But let's be realistic here; it's not asif people in the 80's said "Well i don't particularly like boxing anymore, but Holmes keeps me as a fan". Holmes lacked the charisma or flashy style to be a big public attraction. As a boxing fan i can appreciate his fights but the average fan (which is 95% of the people making up the boxing popularity) wants something exciting, not his display of skill, stamina etc. Holmes was not liked by the press and made an arrogant, annoyed impression. The fact that they considered Tyson to be a breath of fresh air should say enough.

 

Larry wasn't liked by the press because he didn't suck up, or sugar coat or exagerate anything. So, he didn't make the best stories.

 

It probably had more to do with the fact that he was a selfish, arrogant ***** :good .