Lewis and Holmes who is greater?

Excellent post IronChamp.

 

@ ironchamp - excellent effort with your post mate.

Out of interest what fights did you end up going back to of Lewis and Holmes?

 

mmm...a rare atsch from Hands of Iron...

Which Lewis fans in particular bro? :think

 

Quality post.

 

This is a good post and I hate to nitpick, but I don't see how the circumstances surrounding the McCall knockout are irrelevant. Lewis was up way before the count of ten, and was in many people's eyes fit to continue when the ref waved him off. That's not an issue of durability but one of poor referee judgement (or possible incompetence). Lennox was in about the same state as Holmes was against Shavers: both were clearly wobbly and a little unsteady on their feet, yet Holmes was given the chance to continue and Lennox was not.

 

Most of Louis's opponents would qualify as Cruiserweights or Light Heavyweights today, so it's pretty hard to say how he'd do against a legitimate big heavyweight of the modern era. Carnera, Simon and Buddy Baer weren't exactly top talents.

 

I think he's talking about DonBoxer's assessment of Joe Louis's H2H ability... which I agree with.


@ironchamp: High quality post, great effort. :good

My only real gripe is, in terms of H2H ability of opposition defeated, I give Lewis more than a edge over Larry.

Then again, you've got to remember I had Holmes the loser against Spoon & Truth, plus his win over Zombie Ali is disgustingly worthless.

 

Thanks:good

Thanks:good

For Holmes:
vs. Norton
vs. Shavers II
vs. Cooney
vs. Witherspoon (agree with the decision)
vs. Smith
vs. Mercer

For Lewis:
vs. Ruddock
vs. Bruno
vs. Mercer
vs. Briggs
vs. Holyfield I
vs. Klitschko

Thanks.

The reason why it's an issue of durability is because it happened again, against another unheralded fighter eliminating any doubt that his chin is his achilles heal. Part of the reason why I had him ahead in H2H over Holmes, apart from the right hand equalizer, is because it is a testament of his ability that he's been able to prevent that from happening more frequently in an era of punchers.

Don Boxer has Joe Louis far too low. He's definitely top 10 H2H. I suppose his era was so far back that he's fallen out of favor with the modern crowd. The funny thing is that even during Ali's era of the 70s most boxing experts picked Joe Louis over George Foreman, a fighter who seems to rank high in H2H lists.

Thanks.

I will say this, I get the impression that you and many others are giving Lewis the nod over quality of opposition defeated based on the fact that Lewis beat lots of punchers whereas Holmes beat lots of boxers.

Boxing fans have a tendency to credit fighters for beating punchers more than we do beating slicksters. Put it this way, Chris Byrd does not seem nearly as imposing as David Tua but he's far more effective and I think on a H2H basis he'd probably fare better.

As for the Witherspoon fight? Holmes won. Witherspoon came close. It would have been a robbery if they gave it to Tim.

As for Zombie Ali?

I'm beginning to question just how far gone he was. I think I may just do a thread to take a deeper look at his ability at that point.

 

You're class. Kalasinn is one of my favorite posters on this forum. :deal

I'm referring to troll theories, that H2H isn't entirely subjective, or that the idea Holmes could be rated above Lewis is completely frivolous and laughable. Multiple, well respected posters on here opined exactly that and put forth damn good reasons. Are they idiots? Is this not the Heavyweight division where numbers 3-10 are typically debatable and subject to change on the drop of the dime? The Heavyweight Division, where you can be KTFO by one shot from an average fighter, get your ass beat by a 42-1 underdog and look terrible against a novice with some 15 odd fights. Is Lewis the Sugar Ray Robinson of the Heavyweight Division with equivalent majority approval? He's not on it like that, not even close.

I voted Holmes for the shits and giggles.

Personally, I've got them neck and neck and even stood up for Lewis in this very thread in regards to the McCall stoppage.

Lewis was an exceptional fighter with amazing physical attributes and skills that see him in all educated likelihood rolling over multiple top 20 heavyweights at their best. I don't believe Holmes is one of them. He was far too skilled, got his own ATG jab (while far less heavy) off quicker, was faster of both hand and foot, had better movement and balance, possessed an unconquerable chin, ridiculous recuperative powers should Lewis land his right (and he will) and proven stamina of a 15-round champion. He wasnt at his best either in the Spoon and Williams fights, they both beat around the same number of rated fighters (Lewis clearly better on the top end) while Larry strung together more consecutive defenses over a very long, single reign ala Joe Louis.

People bring up Mercer and McCall because these are fighters Holmes put up much greater performances against way, way beyond his best years (over a decade, actually); Mercer was undefeated - albeit typically short on career bouts - and top rated when Holmes schooled him; he was coming off a loss to Holyfield and draw with Marion Wilson when Lewis took a disputed decision over him. Mercer found himself amongst the top heavyweights again based on the strength of that performance. In fairness, he was always very hot and cold as HOOK has previously stated and I agree.

There's no room for smugness in this one.

 

I think Holmes avoided most of the best high ranking boxers he could've faced: Tubbs, Page, Thomas (especially Thomas in '84!), Dokes... Tillis was better than several of Larry's title challengers too! As for Truth Williams, Larry lost. Imagine if Lewis had avoided top punchers like Ruddock, Briggs & Morrison... would you approve of such ducking?

Yeah a lot of people do, but my point is Holmes avoided more top skillful boxers, than ones he actually faced! What a shame. I totally agree about Byrd being superior H2H (against most people) than Tua, he was a defensive wizard of super elusiveness at his Peak, with beautiful combination punching ability too. Also he faced a highly motivated version of Tua, who had been through a 8 week intensive fitness boot camp, & clearly outboxed him.

Strongly disagree. Holmes not offering a rematch was a horrid disgrace.

Please read my scorecard posts here:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10220736&postcount=948
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10237145&postcount=951

Zombie Ali was unquestionably dead in the water, with a hole in his brain, the onset of Parkinson's Syndrome, & a heavy Thyroid Medication overdose.

Thanks bro. :happy

 

Agree with pretty much everything you have written although i do think you are selling lewis abit short in the durability steaks, fair enough he had the two one punch ko's but i think overall he faced a bigger percentage of large big punching fighters.
I would still agree holmes had better durability but maybe not quite as much in it as you have mentioned.

 

Nice fair post mate. If you go back to my first post in this thread (pg 3) you will see i have them neck and neck too.

I've found some of Rat Dat's quotes funny, yep his an extremist and is overly protective of Lewis but at the end of the day he comes out with some funny ****, aswell has some truths. If some people in the classic are too stuffy to see that or can't take his posts with a pinch of salt that's they problem. No smugness on my part, i find him funny, plain and simple.

Yep Kally is a top poster, knowledgable and witty. The same goes for Don Boxer and obviously Foreman Hook, who is a master of sarcasm.

 

You could look at it as a durability issue, but Lewis was only ever knocked down and out twice in a career of fighting big punching heavyweights, more than a few of whom tested his chin. I think it's more sensible to look at it as a concentration issue. Lewis as you probably know had a tendency to take nights off and that led to his two losses which, in both cases, came from flush right hands from two huge punchers. Should that really reflect badly on his chin because the fighters themselves were in all other respects inferior?