Lewis and Marciano hypocrisy

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

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    You hit the nail on the head.
    Foreman thought highly of Marciano and I would of thought those feelings would of been mutual from the other direction if Rocky had not of died when he did.

    The issue is with 3 in here who do nothing but run down Liston, Foreman, Ali, Tyson. Those are the biggest threats.

    The point I am making is that anyone who has boxed at any level would surely not degrade those mentioned, year after year. RockJim has pre-prepared statements for all of them which he repeats constantly. That is not a true boxing fan, it is something else which is not related to the skillsets and attributes of those types of fighter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    100℅ spot on. Myself and others have also been saying this too.
    As you say, even if he comes in at 215 or 220 without sacrificing anything, he's still not fast, still not elusive, still prone to cuts, still has baby T-rex arms. And he's still spotting the average heavyweight 15-25 pounds or so.
    It's asking just way too much.
    He'd be at best a moderately successful heavyweight, and even then I have my doubts.

    But seeing him as a light heavyweight is not inconceivable. He may drain himself getting to 175, but with 24 hours to replenish, he could easily gain what he lost and enter the ring at the weight he actually fought at.
    To me, that's a far more viable proposition.
    He could also fight at cruiserweight, though even there he'd be outsized by a fair few. But still, it would be possible.
    Heavyweight? As @choklab said, it's really a different division now.

    I think the fantasy persists because the great man would be seen as 'lesser' to fight in any other division other than the heavyweight division.

    I don't see why he should be. He still accomplished what he did, still had a great career, still became legendary.
    But he's too small by modern standards. Way too small.
    I think he'd be a beast at light heavyweight. Probably cruiserweight too.
    Isn't that enough?
     
  3. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    @mrkoolkevin thanks for the links.

    Yes, this makes sense. No way did Rocky run 16 miles a day for fights. His feet would have been f*cked. They sure as hell didn't run in modern-day sneakers, that's for sure.
    I'm sure he covered the distance, but not all of it by running, as the link shows.

    And getting plenty of sleep I think has been undervalued until reasonably recently. Again, as the link shows, he did that. Makes perfect sense.
     
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  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well there's this:

    Assuming the source is valid, we can pretty much bury the myth Rocky was some sort of natural 200 pounder who had to "kill himself" with intense training to get down to his ideal fighting weight of 185-188. His own cook said his goal in camp was not to lose weight, and he seems to have eaten quite a lot all day. Kinda hard to burn the weight off while chowing down on lamb chops, fruit, tea, potatoes, etc all day. And running a mere 3 miles certainly won't help you burn 15 lbs, especially if you are leisurely walking throughout the run.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  5. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think this is what it boils down to.

    To be fair, there ARE some extreme modernists who go out of their way to insult older heavyweights, but that is not always the reason for the push back.

    For whatever reason, plenty of Rocky fans need to make him out to be some sort of Greek Demi god who could easily overcome 50+ lbs of muscle+long reach+good skill and power from modern sized guys. But if you even suggest someone a mere 10 lbs lighter than Rocky (like say, a light heavyweight) could compete with him h2h they get offended and talk about how absurd it is due to the size difference. Those people always have a bizarre agenda and are very inconsistent.
     
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  6. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    The usual suspects continuously put Marciano and known associates in fantasy match ups with modern Super Heavies then get offended when every answer isn't "he's small...he can't add weight...pick him to lose by KO or we call you delusional." Frankly it's weird and boring, and a huge reason why I rarely post here anymore.
     
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  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    for me It all really depends on comparisons between the eras. There were pros and cons to fighting in the era that Marciano fought in and there are pros and cons to a fighter developing alongside what would be an unfair advantage over older fighters.

    Often there are, as you say, extreme modernists going out of their way to trash older fighters against those from generations that have benefited from the advances in PEDs to support their argument.

    Defending a non juiced generation against the juiced generation can cause outrage among the modernists.
    It can appear to be more healthy than somebody coming over as an extreme old timer.

    with me it is not so much that Marciano is this set in stone Demi god who can overcome anyone. But he can overcome classic sized heavyweights. So for me It’s more the issue that classic sized heavyweights went no bigger than 226 for many many years. 175-226 is classic heavyweight. Without PEDs and few rare exceptions that was the limit.

    In fantasy fights The question has to be would this modern fighter even be more than a classic sized heavyweight if he came up in that particular fighters era?

    Once there were enough 230-260 giants to create a whole new division you are really talking about modern day cyborgs that could never really exist before then.

    And the reasons for the existence of an exclusive super heavyweight division replacing “heavyweight” need to be addressed in all of these discussions.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Are you saying here that ONLY the use of illegal drugs or a "rare exception" can explain the size of heavyweights in the modern era?
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I’m suggesting that there is a jolly good chance PEDs (which all sized fighters benefit from) have meant that more can be achieved from the tallest and longest athletes who were previously redundant as what would previously be considered a great boxer.

    We know there were plenty of giants of yesteryear but unfortunately for them, It could just be that before modern advances, that have changed the entire face of all sport not just boxibg, older traditional methods older rules prevented the domination of these men we see today.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think that's "no", but I can't be sure?

    Are you saying here that ONLY the use of illegal drugs or a "rare exception" can explain the size of heavyweights in the modern era?
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No, there possibly many other factors as well. I remember a debate we had once upon a time about the increase in sizes of gloves that hit a stale mate. Changes in number of championship rounds. Speed just wasn’t overcoming size like it used to. At top level we began to see size as more and more of an advantage didn’t we? We saw more heavier guys. We saw older guys lasting longer. And some of that was because more guys could get heavier in a more functional way.

    It is due to training and developing physically under modern training isn’t it?

    and it’s not just heavyweight.

    At heavyweight we are seeing heavier fighters.

    At all the other weight classes we are seeing taller fighters. And older fighters.

    Could this just be because of modern nutritional training advances and changes in weigh ins? Or can it be because of new ways to cheat the scales? New ways to cheat Father Time?
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There are two reasons for me.

    1) The population grew taller, in fact the height average height of the population exploded in the last century - average height appears to be plateaued based upon skeletal remains until last century, really, and then it all went off. So at the beginning of the century there were fewer very tall people. This matters because very tall has to intercede with athletic prowess - in other words when there are very few people over six four, there will be almost nobody who is over 6'4 and athletically gifted. So more athletic big men had emerged by 1980 than in all of history, by some distance.

    2) Trainers weren't good at training athletic, flexible, explosive, fast big men because there were so few of them. As more emerged, trainers got better at training them, arguably not culminating until Steward worked with Lewis.

    So, combine increased numbers of big men, increased number of athletic big men, combine it with experience of training, and you're off.
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes I do agree that these are elements too. There are more tall people because there are more people altogether as well. The percentage of men taller than 6’4” is still 1% of the overall population.

    Then there are more counties taking up boxing. But then there is a decline in the take up of boxing too. Has there been a study on the population of boxers as a percentage within the human population?

    So whilst I agree, more tall men, yes. As a factor it isn’t the biggest factor.

    The trainers are more open minded. That’s a certainty. Weight training is accepted. Strength and conditioning coaching. But didn’t all this get introduced around the time advances were made in all sports? The PED boom?

    One factor I am open to consider is the diets of the working classes. Boxing is a working class sport. The percentage of tall people from the working classes can differ from the percentage of tall people in the middle classes. And again this can differ from one country to another.

    yet the diets of poor people producing tall people who grew strong enough to reach their full athletic potential must have improved on its own.

    There is evidence that the age of children taking up sport can effect the size of an adult too.
     
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  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Performance enhancing drugs don't make people taller. Well, they can, i mean there ARE drugs that will make you taller when you're very young that will coincidentally make you better at sport through being tall, but I presume you aren't talking about these.

    What PEDs really do is aid you in recovery; allow you to train for longer; in instances of HGH and some steroids, encourage muscular development. But someone like Ernie Terrell:
    This content is protected

    Can very obviously add 20lbs with a serious weight training regime. Now this:

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    Could very well be the body of a cheat, but there's no proof of that and he doesn't look unnatural, at all. Everyone who trains seriously in a gym will tell you that this physique is not difficult to obtain with hard work, and hard work is his job.

    In the parlance of the time it wasn't considered wisdomw though.

    Parker is shorter AND heavier than Terrell and it's not because he's a cheat I don't think.

    But keep in mind, most functional PEDs aid in recovery and increased stamina in training, not direct gains in size.
     
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  15. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, diet cannot be emphasised enough.
    I've spent the last few years in China, and I've seen first-hand how diet affects size and stature.
    The rural, country folk are generally poor and eat food befitting their financial status.
    Almost to a man, they are quite short (less than 5'7") and very thin.
    In the cities, this is changing quite fast.
    People have more wealth, eat much better, and consequently are usually taller, some even exceeding 6' (though rare) which I never saw in the rural areas.
    Diet is absolutely crucial.

    As you say, the acceptance of weights also changed the game significantly. With that, came the introduction of PEDs and specialists like strength & conditioning coaches and nutritionists. It's all added up to stronger, heavier men.
    It can be seen in certain other sports, too.
    The sport of Strongman was for years dominated by guys around 6'3" and about 320 pounds.
    Nowadays, there are very successful athletes standing well over 6'6" and weighing 400 pounds or more.
     
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