Lewis and Marciano hypocrisy

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It does beg the question though, if there's any place for a sub-6' heavyweight these days. Let's say a fighter 5'10" and 215 pounds or so.
    They must surely be out there, somewhere. But are they stuck in no man's land?
    Too big for the uninspiring cruiserweight division, but perhaps too small to be an outstanding heavyweight.
    To be successful at heavyweight, he'd have to have some exceptional attributes, in my opinion.
    Even if that fighter could boil down to cruiserweight weight for the weigh-in, surely the lure of much bigger paydays at heavyweight would see him fight as a heavyweight anyway.
    Or maybe such a fighter just does MMA instead, where height and reach can be countered with a solid ground game.
     
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  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is a good point. Of course this was Tyson in his prime wasnt it? 5’10”, 215lb.

    heavyweights really have gotten so big even Tyson might have to consider cruiserweight now.

    The 1980s and 1990s was perhaps the last era of classic sized heavyweights.

    I have long said they should have a name change and call cruiser “heavyweight” as it is in the Amateurs. Just do away with that word. Since all the classic sized heavyweights must languish there under the 24 hour weigh in situation anyway.

    modern training has created real Superheavyweights now. It is a new weight class.
     
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I haven't said any of this. None at all. This is all projected, a part of your fantasy.

    What i've asked you is to explain what you meant by:

    ""More than likely he would have done what Orlin Norris did. That seems the most logical."

    I've been asking you this question for posts and posts now. You've patently refused to answer.

    And now, even if you do answer, it'll be after being asked to do so several times having dragged any joy that might be had out of the process all together.

    Of course, this, in part, is the point.

    Anything to protect the fantasy.

    Who are you talking to choklab? Are you talking to me? Asking me why he couldn't have? Like, for one second, for one ****ing second, I've said he couldn't?

    You have quoted me agreeing with Janitor that he could bulk up.

    Why are you asking me these stupid, stupid questions?
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    what I meant is the “example” of Norris seems a logical option to Rocky . The ability to literally weigh anything that he did with a similar body. “Doing what Norris did” refers to just that. Rocky can do what Orlin did. If he wants to. That’s it. The answer.

    maybe because you make your question seem so complicated.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well it's good to decide to answer (Eventually) but this isn't really an answer, is it? However, talking to you has just become too boring and difficult. As I said, I think that's the goal with you sometimes, just to throw as much confusion into the conversation as you can, in the hopes of being left alone with the fantasy.

    Well I think this is a flat out lie. I think the idea that even you were confused by:

    What did you mean by "more than likely"?
    What did you mean by "done what Orlin Norris did."?
    What did you mean by "seems the most logical"?

    And confused to the extent where you think I'm saying that Marciano "couldn't bulk up to Norris's size" is more fantasy. I mean, they are very very simple questions.

    There is this panic to your posting when you talk about Marciano, especially when you talk to someone you perceive as being "against" him. I think you immediately decide not to answer any of my questions but rather just make up your own and answer them because it is easier for you.

    But maybe i'm wrong..maybe you really were that confused. I hope for your sake it is the former though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  6. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It is not uncommon for Marciano fans to also be Liston fans.

    I know that Foreman for sure thought very highly of him.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The most logical things for a 5'10 215 pound guy to do is simply cut 10 lbs and fight at cruiser. It's not the end of the world. If he's skin and bones and weak at 215 he should put on more weight anyway. If he's flabby at 215 10 lbs will not kill him and he should do it anyway. But if he's fit at 215 just gradually lose the weight leading up to the fight and then rehydrate.

    Or choose a different sport if you don't want to be bothered. 5'10 is such an odd height when you weigh more than 175 lbs, especially if you have short arms in a striking sport. It would probably be wise to work on being a more defensive fighter than a 1 dimensional slugger unless you don't mind having a very short career with health problems at age 30.

    As for Rocky, he wouldn't need to worry about any of this since he weighed 185-188 lbs usually. He was in rock solid shape at that weight with good power, stamina, and durability. As me and several others have pointed out, why on Earth would he Debut at 215 packing on an additional 30 lbs of muscle to become solid brick power house while sacrificing the things that made him good and losing even more speed, flexibility, and stamina when he already wasn't particularly fast or elusive in the first place? It's dumb. Either lose the 10 lbs or at the very least go to cruiserweight.

    Few modern heavies are ever as low as 215 in the first place. The average guys are 230 or more, which means even if Rocky somehow kept the same level of stamina, work rate, and toughness he'd still have to usually deal with opponents who were basically a whole weight class larger than him on average with tremendous reach and height advantages. With his short arms and relying on an aggressive fighting style he'd be bringing a knife to a sword fight almost every time. You can be the best knife fighter in the world, but even a mediocre sword fighter will have a ridiculous advantage.
     
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  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I feel I like I have explained myself as well as I can.

    gee, am I sorry for that.

    I just try to answer questions. Perhaps there are tangents.

    it is likely that Marciano could take those physical options in a modern era.

    Go up and down in weight like Norris did.

    the example of Norris is logical. It happened,

    I hadn’t realised. Perhaps this panicking is something I shall have to consider about myself the next time I defend a line of thought that appears negative toward Marciano. I really don’t want to come across all panicky.

    You do come across abruptly, I must say.

    Perhaps your tendency to accuse me of being insane (or unwell) might have something to do with it?

    where ever possible I will answer your question and explain my thoughts behind them.

    It is possible that my wires were crossed. I guess.
     
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    On the other hand, the best cruisers always seem to end up at heavyweight eventually.
     
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That's not true at all. Non-answer 1:

    "what do you mean by even asking that when I have already used Orlin Norris career weights as an example of a fighter the size of Rocky going up and down in weight to suit each particular assignment."

    Non-answer 2:

    "you are asking a lot of questions here. I have made my point quite clear. Fighters can bulk up. When fighters could bulk up in a functional way they began to bulk up.p even before they turned pro."

    Neither one of these even remotely engages with the questions you were asked. Not remotely.

    It's taken three pages, I think, to get you to actually answer these questions. You have now stated that:

    "it is likely that Marciano could take those physical options in a modern era." Which is absolutely reasonable, practical on every level and impossible to disagree with.

    For your information, and this is a strange, strange coincidence:

    "More than likely he would have done what Orlin Norris did. That seems the most logical."

    Gives the impression that you think that this is what Marciano would have done. You say when you say he "more than likely" would have done that, you appear to be making the prediction that Marciano WOULD have done what Orlin did - not that he "COULD have taken those physical options in the modern era."

    But you've cleared that up now. You were just saying it was possible and when you said it was "likely", you didn't mean that. I understand now. Perhaps you can see how you managed to create that confusion :lol:
     
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  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Actually this is a good post.

    In regard to the very modern era, where a 215lb guy is fighting a 6’9” 260lb man I would go so far as to agree with all of it.

    There are exceptions. But on the whole. I agree. Largely.

    Andy Ruiz is flabby and was successful whilst flabby. Of course he is taller than 5’10” but probably not by much. He’s a strange case admittedly.

    what kind of weight should he be? Is There an argument he’s good enough the way he is?

    Or is that just down to the time he fought?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It depends who you ask. His former trainer says he should be absolutely left alone. So does his current. Andy himself is determined to lose weight, but this may not be for fistic reasons.

    Most of all, he has a fine gastank regardless.
     
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  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Do you think his success, fine gas tank, is due to the era he is fighting in?

    Is it possible, considering his hand speed and work rate, he could produce such output in similar shape in another era?

    Do you think, maintaining strength at that level would even be as possible?
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    There is nobody else that does what Andy does in his era. He's the one. So yeah, I think so.
     
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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    At 5'9 200, Willie Meehan is closest to Ruiz. Maybe.