Lewis as 9th best HW ever?

Check this for some info on their sparring Gaz, you can probably find more by searching.

I can't say I've looked into Dempsey vs Greb in the detail needed to assess the reason for it not happening but he at least declared intention at one point. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00C16FA355A1B7A93C0A8178FD85F468285F9

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20B12F739551A738DDDAD0894DF405B828EF1D3

 

Cheers Scott, I'm reading now. HOw do I search for stuff like that?

 

Normal google search, but change to news tab, then you can filter by year on the left.

Unfortunately I heard they are discontinuing this service.

 

I personally have him 5, but let's be honest it's all down to tiny margins by the time you truly get to the 10 best heavyweights out of literally hundreds of thousands over many years.

 

Let's not forget that these 'sparring sessions' were exhibitions for an audience.

On the third day, Dempsey was exhausted and could only manage three rounds.

It was Harry Greb who again today gave Dempsey his stiffest workout. The Pittsburgher was in fine fettle after the excellent showing he made against the champion yesterday. He was full of pep. With the call of time signalizing the beginning of activities, Greb promptly rushed Dempsey. The onslaught was so sudden that Jack was caught off his guard and it took a solid left hook into the body, plied with all the force at Greb's command, which is considerable, to jolt Dempsey into action. Then the fur began to fly.

It was a whirlwind three rounds that these two fighters staged for the edification of the biggest crowd that has yet shoe-horned its way into the grandstand at the baseball park in front of which the ring is built. There were fully 2,000 people present, and they were treated to as much action in those three rounds as is usually crowded into eight of a real bout.

The bout caused the crowd to burst into cheers and prolonged applasuse. In fact, during the intermission between the second and third rounds Ted Hayes, who acts as announcer at the Dempsey camp, was compelled to request the spectators to refrain from urging either of the men to greater efforts.

-New York Times, 1920


They tried to make it in 1919 as well, after Dempsey had won the title. Two promoters came in with offers (supposedly) and Greb had agreed. The Pittsburgh Post (no doubt not one of the most objective sources most probably) said 'it's up to Dempsey. And it's going to be difficult for Dempsey to say 'go get a reputation'....(Greb had) licked as many, if not more Heavies than Dempsey.'

That time, Dempsey went for Miske (Greb had already beaten, had recently lost to other fighters that Greb had beaten) and Brennan in 1920. Who Greb had already beaten easily three times the year before.

In March '22, Greb beat Gibbons. In between that and Dempsey fighting Gibbons, he went 18-1, with a one-sided win over Tunney, a close loss to Tunney, a few wins over Bob Roper (Heavyweight journeyman) and Tommy Loughran as well.

Gibbons went 8-1, avenging a DQ los to Billy Miske so I think it was clear to see who was the better fighter out of the two at that time.

Gibbons was a quality win for Dempsey IMO, he was as tricky as they come, and a great fighter in his own right. But the fanfare was for the Greb fight, and Dempsey didn't take it.

 

"Even Doc Kearns, who was managing Jack Dempsey, refused to let his tiger in the ring with Greb. They did spar on two occasions. The first time was when Dempsey was getting ready for his title defense against Billy Miske in Benton Harbor, Michigan. Greb ripped into dempsey, punching the heaveyweight champion as he pleased, until Kearns finally threw him out of the ring for being too rough."

Ring Magazine, 1922

 

Nice finds Flea.:good The 2 accounts seem be at odds with each other though.

The first is dated 1920, presumably for the Dempsey-Miske fight, where Greb is said to have hit Dempsey after the bell and they went at it toe to toe and completed 3 rounds whereas the the Ring account of the session has Greb battering Dempsey and Kearns throwing him out before the finish.....

 

I might be wrong, but they sparred a few times over a few days IIRC. The Ring article appears to be in retrospect, rather than an account of the spar/a more recent session, so 'Chinese whispers' may well have took their toll :good

One things for sure, and it's that Jack didn't have too much success. As I said earlier, Dempsey looked a different beast when fighting smaller, craftier guys IMO, than the dynamic destroyer that battered Willard and Firpo around the ring.

You rate Grebs chances in accordance with how you rate Greb with the likes of Gibbons, Tunney and Carpentier as a challenge for Dempsey I guess. Greb would be craftier and faster than Gibbons by all accounts, and might not make Dempsey look a bit lacklustre but beat him??

I can't see Dempsey sparking him ;-)

 

"For sure"....:good

edit for your edit!!

You can easily make a case for him deserving a title shot prior to 1923. He does OK against common opponents, knocked out less but thats a size/ styles thing rather than affecting Dempsey-Greb H2H.

You can say Dempsey brushed aside the smaller man in a title defense (Carpentier) or that Greb had shown he could beat heavies I guess. Still not enough meat on the bone for me though in the ducking stakes.

 

That's fair enough, both Scottrf and yourself know your stuff, so I won;t try to convince you further :good

What are the classic 'definite ducks' in your opinion Gaz :good Bowe-Lewis, obviously.

 

Sullivan-Jackson.

Johnson not fighting Langford for the title in England when articles got signed. I can't remember if Johnson got a better offer to fight in Europe at that time though.....

 

Gaz-Posting his top 10 is the most obvious one.

Most IMO happen at one point or another if they are big enough. But to be fair the ones you have named are fair enough, I just think have some *'s.

Jeffries-Johnson (Colour bar a possibility but he was happy to face black challengers without a title).
Johnson-Langford (Should probably have given him a shot).
Dempsey-Wills? (Undecided how much emphasis to put on it. Big challenger but probably a commercial disaster, and I'm not sure it was his decision [and I think he did sign it]).
Patterson-Liston earlier on (Cus's fault).
Bowe-Lewis (don't buy that he just wanted to set up a Holyfield trilogy)

Must be more but I don't put stock in ones like Lewis ducking a Vitali rematch etc, or Ali likewise against Foreman.

 

I did one a few weeks ago on here. I'll try and find the thread, although I think Flea had convinced me to rank Foreman higher than I usually do for that list!!

 

Destorying unbeaten Frazier off the back of a win over Ali and oldest ever world champion (at the time) is pretty impressive, although I agree his record lacks depth and performances sometimes lacked conviction. Plus really he was a punchbag for his comeback, he just landed the all important punch.