Lewis as 9th best HW ever?

I tend to think pulling out the win after taking such a drubbing (physically and one the scorecards) is testament to his ability ;-)

But yes, that win over Frazier is very impressive. And what of his 'loss' to Briggs? :think

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-7jrUVyjMM[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW9JD60TY3o&feature=related[/ame]

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And Gaz, re: Holmes. I merely pointed out that Holmes also had some close shaves (Witherspoon), was hurt badly by Weaver, but also had some good wins into the 90s including Mercer ;-) I don't think I convinced you to change your placings though, and to be honest, I had Holmes at no.3 for years. :good

Re: Lewis; despite those stoppage losses (both avenged) he probably faced more big punchers than any other HW champion (arguably Ali of course) and usually decimated the bigger guys. He even has a win over he guy who is the consensus no.1/2 today. He has to be top five.

Scottrf; Charles or Liston, HW rankings?

 

I can't find my list mate. I know its in some obscure thread where me and Flea ended up rowing about size in the Heavyweight division. The thread title is probably something like "Qawi vs. Haye at cruiserweight"!!

 

Liston, although Charles is a top 5 P4P IMO I don't think he did enough against Heavyweights to put him higher. Top LHW though. Liston before Ali was impressive enough and against decent enough Heavies to give him a few places over Charles Heavyweight wise, even though he never really recovered.

I see we don't agree on this though. Charles' record is too mixed for me at the weight. Patterson, Valdez, Folley and Williams take it.

R.e. Foreman-Briggs, don't remember it well if I'm honest.

 

Robs 'alltime rankings' thread, have a look in there :good

Charles:

Easy win over past prime Joe Louis
Got the better of series with Walcott
Went toe-to-toe with Satterfield, one of hardest punchers at the time
Ray, Bivins, Maxim, Layne, Lesnevich, all useful HWs. Lost to Valdes, himself an erratic performer.

I think in terms of resume there's little between them, Charles beat Louis before he was completely shot, Liston smashed Patterson, close to his best, twice. Best single win at the weight goes to Liston then, but in terms of depth, the likes of Machen and Bethea are on the same as Charles' 2nd tier wins.

But I can see your case, entirely :thumbsup

As someone else said earlier on in this thread, when you get this far up the rankings, you're splitting hairs trying to seperate some of these guys and it's very much 'what you like'.

 

The thing that sways it for me is that many of them did their best work at LHW, and it was afterwards they moved up to fight at Heavy. They had success but not the same as in the lower division and I guess I see them in some cases as a marriage of convenience, rather than against a proper established Heavyweight (not sure if I'm explaining well here). It matters less but I think Liston probably matches up better H2H as a Heavy too.

 

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Holmes
4) Lewis
5) Johnson
6) Foreman
7) Holyfield
8) Tyson
Frazier
10) Marciano

 

But so did Patterson (not his best work, but came up), and that was out of convenience IIRC, because Cus saw an oppurtunity because the division was fractured and not too great at that time, The Ol' Mongoose was the last of the previous eras best still knockin' around. Valdes himself, had lost to Archie Moore and Harold Johnson, who were amongst the kinda' light heavys that were fighting 'over the limit' at the time.

In terms of wins over established HW talent, they're not far apart IMO, especially considering that both faced seriously talented 'lighter' guys (neither Liston nor Charles was massive, though Liston was certainly thicker set and had that famous reach to compliment him not being huge) as I said before, I do rate those wins over Patterson pretty highly. Patterson got better as the rounds went on, Liston blew him away as easily as Johannson had years before. But I stand firm on saying that Louis was not as shot then as he was when he went on to face Marciano, even between Charles and The Rock he doesn't look awful. He was heavier, no doubt, and past his prime, but he'd stayed sharp with an 'exhibition' the year before, and his last defence proper was against Walcott where he looked extremely deadly :yep Charles was the first man to beat Louis since Schmeling, and did it convincingly. Not a great version of Louis by any means, and he was nowhere near as sharp as he had been. But a solid win nonetheless, the no.2 HW of all time who wasn't beaten by many others.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI[/ame]
(5:03)

After Charles, against a smaller guy that had given him a few problems first time, still appears to have retained his punch in the early going

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YLR5zik8H8[/ame]

 

That's not too bad, just your numeracy skills that need work

 

Fixed. The lack of a 9 is deliberate though. That tidies up number 10 a lot neater as well!!

 

Lewis has the second best competition ever behind Ali resume.

Holmes and Louis had really weak resumes for champions that reigned such long periods of time.

 

You still have 9 names before Marciano at 9 though, Frazier is just floating, but nevermind!

Fair points Flea, good debate :good Wouldn't have them miles apart.

 

Tyson above Frazier...

 

I don't agree with Louis. Possibly 2nd behind Ali in opposition IMO, as well as his great longevity and skills. He had some poor defenses, but a lot of great ones too.

 

Ali lost to Berbick and Leon Spinks lol

Joe Louis lost to Max Schemiling, and got a lucky decision over Walcott.

Holmes reign was the american heavyweight title not the world, never once ventured outside his own country.

Frazier was a 205 pounds one handed fighter who never once avenged a loss


I could go on.


Calling Oliver McCall and Rahman journeyman shows your limitations.

 

Holmes record as champ is OK IMO, certainly not weak. A few duffers like most long reigns but also some decent names like Witherspoon, Weaver, Norton, Smith, Shavers etc...