Licked 8 champs / never got a title shot /

Look at post #4, I already posted him.

 

Sorry. Missed that.

 

I think it is Bivins that he is looking for. He and Flanagan both beat 8. When Bukkake asked a question like that on another forum, I came up with the following:

10 Memphis Pal Moore
9 Lloyd Marshall
8 Flanagan
8 Bivins
8 Feldman (but he fought for a title)
7 Risko

 

I had the pleasure of meeting him when we put up the monument of Joe Louis in Pompton Lakes, New Jersey, where Louis, Robinson and others trained years ago. I was the MC and had a chance to talk to him for about an hour.

 

I agree, he was small for a heavyweight but during the time Louis was in the service, there was no one better in that division. He did have a long reach for a small man. He was only 5'9" and had the reach of a man 6'4".

 

I think it's debatable. Lee Q Murray was the recognized interim champion by the Maryland and Ohio Commisions, and he twice defeated Bivins. Murray was a 6'3 210lb Switch hitter who could box and punch. Very Underrated.

Elmer Ray was another who might have rated over Bivins. A unique style...A 6'2 Puncher-Swarmer with a very long reach. Big time Power in both hands. He possessed a solid workrate and attacked from all angles. He went on a huge winning streak, and scared the day lights out of most top contenders of the day. They don't come any tougher than the gator wrestler!


I would lump Bivins, Ray, Murray together as the best 3 during the War years.

 

Bivins was 26-0-1 from the middle of 1942 to the beginning of 1946, and beat Murray twice during that time. They had a total of 5 fights, Bivins won 3 of them. The last 3 fights were after Louis came back. Murray lost 5 or 6 bouts during that time.

Elmer Ray had a Great record during that time but Bivins had much better wins. Bivins besides beating Murray twice, beat Charles, Moore, Maxim, Pastor, Christoforidis, Lloyd Marshall, Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Melio Bettina, among others.

He was also rated #1 at the end of 1942 and 1943. He along with Harry Wills and Nino Valdez, are the only Heavyweights that were rated #1 at the end of the year 2 straight times, that never fought for the title.

 

But one of the fights was a putrid decision.


"Jimmy Bivins, Cleveland, ranked by the NBA as the country's top active heavyweight, was awarded a thunderously booed 10 round decision over Lee Q. Murray of South Norwalk, Conn., at the Arena Wednesday night. The decision of Referee Jackie Davis and Judges Jim Parker and Herb Williams was unanimous, but the record crowd of 14,500 greeted the decision with almost solid disapproval and continued booing for more than 10 minutes after the decision was announced. Bivins' face was a mass of blod at the finish and referee Jackie Davis' shirt was drenched in gore from a deep cut which Murray opened above Bivins' left eye in the 6th stanza." -Associated Press
Unofficial AP scorecard - 6-3-1 Murray

Seems the series should have gone 3-2 in favor of Murray.


Murray also knocked out 6'4 210lb # 5 rated Harry Bobo in 1943 to win the Duration Heavyweight Championship recognized by Maryland and Ohio Comissions. Bivins never won such a duration title. Murray did.

Murray defeated Jimmy Bivins 2x, Harry Bobo, Buddy Walker 2x, Lou Brooks, Turkey Thompson, Hatchetman Sheppard, Perk Daniels during Louis' absence from the Ring. most of if not all of these men cracked the Ring Magazine top 10 from 1942-1945.

Murray was a very legit fighter.

Yes I would agree Bivins beat better fighters from 1942-1945, but in 1946 Ray beat Walcott, while bivins lost to walcott. This bumped Ray up to # 1 contender, ray certainly deserved a shot against Joe Louis sometime in 1946-1947.

 

I never said he wasn't.

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1944-02-29 : Jimmy Bivins 191lbs beat Lee Q Murray 202½lbs by PTS in round 10 of 10

Location: Arena, Cleveland, Ohio, USA

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was unchallenged today after he had disposed of Lee Q. Murray in a return 10 rounder. Murray, from Norwalk, Conn., had created some doubts about Bivins' superiority in the ranks of the active heavies when he almost triumphed by a TKO in their first tussle, but Jimmy dispelled those uncertainties before a capacity crowd of 13,774 at the Arena last night. Bivins, known as the best counter-puncher in the leather-pushing industry, abandoned his usual style and carried the attack to his opponent. Bivins was also the more alert warrior and it paid off in the form of a nine-count knockdown in the 9th round. Bivins rushed Lee as soon as he arose. A left carried so much force it drove Murray against the ropes where he was flailed by an adversary intent upon a KO. However, Murray used his long arms to cover up and was able to go the distance." -Associated Press

• The gate of $61,496.50 established a new indoor record for a boxing show in Ohio.
• Bivins was inducted into the Armed Services later in March.

Post fight comment

• "He gave me a good whippin' and I don't have an alibi." -Lee Q. Murray

This was after Louis came back. I said Bivins was the best during the time Louis was away.

 

So do you think Murray lost his duration title when Bivins beat him?

Because according to Boxrec, Harry Bobo won the duration title over Buddy Walker, then lost it to Lee Q Murray. Lee Q Murray defended his title succesfully against Hatchetman Sheppard, but this was after he had already lost twice in his previous two fights to Bivins. I am suprised Ohio And Maryland commisions allowed Murray to keep the belt after losing twice to bivins(albeit one time controversially)

 

When I had the pleasure of introducing Bivins back in 1999, I announced that he was the duration Champion while Louis was away. Bert Sugar, Lou Duva, Dave Anderson all agreed. They even had a poster from that time, that stated the same thing, and it was displayed for all to see.

 

I am not disagreeing with you. Only reporting to you that Murray deserves some kind of consideration for winning a duration championship belt recognized by ohio and maryland commissions. It's the least Murray deserves, there no film of him out there, and hardly any good information on his life/career.

 

While Louis was in the armed forces during World War II, Bivins was matched against Tami Mauriello for the "duration" heavyweight title at Madison Square Garden on March 12, 1943. A friend of Mauriello's named Frank Sinatra sang the national anthem.

According to a story by boxing writer Jerry Fitch, Bivins pummeled Mauriello so mercilessly that Sinatra broke down in tears. Bivins won a 10-round decision.

A photograph of Louis, in uniform, handing Bivins the duration belt is one of the few pieces of memorabilia the family has left.