Lindell Holmes?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by sas6789, May 31, 2012.

  1. sas6789

    sas6789 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    How good was he? I've never really seen him fight except the Eubank fight at the end of his career, for which he gave Eubank a good fight (That's the only one of his fights i can find on youtube). I know he was a former IBF champion and defended it a couple of times but he hardly seems to be mentioned. However, i've been looking at his record and he didn't seem to beat or fight a lot of top fighters and he had a few loses early in his career. I've heard he hit quite hard, but one thing i did notice was that he knocked out Sanderline Williams which is something James Toney, Nigel Benn, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson and Gerald McClellan couldn't do. How good was he really?
     
  2. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    He hit very hard - in one of his fights against a guy called Darnell-somebody he actually lifted the guy a few feet off the ground with an uppercut.

    He was WBC middleweight #1 contender for about five years in the 80s. One of those avoided fighters.

    Apparently Angelo Dundee wanted nothing of him for Mike Nunn.

    He also looked sharp against a sharp Herol Graham and was catching him with the last 1-2 shots of 4-5 punch combos constantly before a Graham butt ended it on cuts. Park and Van Horn kind of out-hussled him, Van Horn stopped him on a bodyshot.

    He was a cute, block/parry defender with very fast hands and very hard shots. He was just very short like Montell Griffin and maybe a bit too flat-footed to beat the very best.
     
  3. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    BILLY GUTZ of Detroit was not happy as he perched in the coffee shop of a modest West London hotel that sits in the shadow of a far taller and far more expensive hostelry. But neither was he complaining.

    It was not that the food was, in his opinion, 'blah'. It was not that the sparring that he says had been promised for Lindell Holmes, the 35-year-old 12st fighter from Toledo, whom he manages, had not materialised. It was not even that Holmes is expected to be handily beaten by Chris Eubank of Brighton in their fight for a verion of the world middleweight title at Olympia tonight, and probably will be, for a purse of pounds 12,500 compared to Eubank's estimated pounds 400,000.


    Gutz also had to sign away three promotional options on Holmes's services to Eubank's promoter, Barry Hearn. But it's not those either. 'I'm grateful,' he said unhappily. No, it was a more general and philosophical unhappiness aimed at the tide of time that boxing managers throughout history have observed engulfing their King Canutes-in-gloves. 'If this were five years ago you could bet your house,' Gutz said, the aural incarnation of a 60-year-old Joe Pesci. 'Five years ago Lindell would've bleeping killed this kid. The only thing now is getting them off - he's got the guns but sometimes you get to a certain age and lose that split second.'


    The diminutions in prestige, dollars and comfort that accompany the manager of a challenger to a champion's backyard: those Gutz can take. 'Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bleep. I been through all this before, I don't expect nobody to do me no favours. We're not in a position to put up a big bleeping squark.'


    The stern flicker of qualification crossed Gutz's face. 'Only, if we beat Eubank - and you can print this - when we come back I'm staying next door, huh? And I'm having my own driver. It'll be a little bit different. Little things, you know. But that's boxing. Feast or famine. Always has been. And, hey, we got everthing to gain and nothing to lose. If we lose, so bleeping what. He becomes an opponent and we fight somebody else. And I'd rather be fighting somebody else than this kid Eubank because this kid is a stinker. He don't get in range. And if Lindell does get beat it'll be because he's that half bleeping second behind.'


    Indeed, it is time alone that really grates Gutz, that is the undertow beneath a swirl of names that bubble out; the names of fighters and managers and promoters who have avoided Lindell Holmes since he turned pro in 1979 and became a fearsomely equipped but unrecognised middleweight.


    'Michael Nunn has pulled out of four fights with us. Now Nunn is with Angelo Dundee. When Don King's people called Angelo and said you're fighting Lindell Holmes, Angelo said, 'Why don't you fight Lindell Holmes.' Duran wouldn't fight us, Leonard wouldn't fight us. Hearns won't go in the same building as us because when he was at the Kronk Lindell was beating the bleep out of him every day. They don't give you a shot at the world title unless they think they can beat you. Lindell used to get in his car, drive 60 miles from Toledo to Detroit, beat the bleep out of Mickey Goodwin, Caveman Lee and Tommy Hearns, then get in his car and drive home.


    'We've always had to travel. We've always been the opponent. But I'm not complaining. After we beat the bleep out of Lottie Mwale in Dusseldorf we went to this big party. Beautiful party. Everybody had Mercedes and Rolexes and there was wine and beer and these guys smoking these big hashish cigars. Incidentally, that was the first time Lindell got drunk.'


    Gutz told an interesting story about a ******, a lady and a room full of mobsters in Philadelphia in 1954. Gutz was there because he was partners with 'Sam', who got him into boxing. Gutz held the manager's licence because Sam was barred because of his criminal record. 'Sam was the guy accused of shooting William Buckley, the journalist, in the Hotel Detroita. A couple of guys walked in and boom, boom, boom. Sam was the guy they got for it but after about seven months he was found innocent because no one would testify.'


    Gutz has many tales from those days when boxing in the United States, thanks to the patronage of the wealthy philanthropist, James J Norris, who had a fascination with gangsters, was virtually run by the Mob in the form of 'The Grey Man', Frankie Carbo, and his sidekick, Blinky Palermo.
    These included being investigated for conspiracy to fix an athletic event. After that Gutz decided to manage one fighter at a time. This enabled him to delve deep into each signing's psychological make-up. They were all good fighters, but all, according to Gutz, had their own problems.


    Holmes's, he says, are an attraction to the opposite sex and increasing scepticism and worry about his chances just before fights. Undeterred, Gutz has devised a plan for Eubank tonight. Holmes will throw right hands to Eubank's stomach and heart. That morning Holmes had been aiming rights at the mid-portion of the heavy bag. Gutz enthused: 'If he hits him like he was hitting the heavy bag today, it should be goodnight.' Unfortunately a sweating Holmes was sceptical. 'I don't know,' he said. 'One thing about Eubank is he carries his hands in a position where he blocks a lot of shots. And he takes a good shot. And another thing I'm worried about is he has his trunks pulled too high. They could take points away from me.'


    When Holmes joined us in the coffee bar Gutz bore up stoically to Time. 'You can fight as long as you want to,' he told Lindell Holmes. 'You're Archie Moore] You're Charlie Burley]'


    Holmes was not convinced. 'I'm not going to bet on this fight,' he said. 'I'm worried about the judges.'
     
    robert ungurean likes this.
  4. sas6789

    sas6789 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's strange i read recently on another forum from someone who apparntly saw the fight live and they said Holmes couldn't lay a glove on Graham, i haven't seen the fight so i can't say but if what you say is correct then that is impressive as Graham was particually hard to hit then!
     
  5. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    Graham outboxed Lindell pretty cleanly.

    First round was pretty even, the rest were all Graham's.

    Lindell didn't land much.

    He was in the fight and was ready to engage throughout the whole fight but Graham tied up Lindell in close quarters pretty good.

    Graham's movement and boxing from a distance gave him the edge in the fight.

    By the way, Graham fought much more conservatively back then - much less Hamed-esque than for example against McCallum.
     
  6. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Graham just would not stand with Li.Holmes and go skill-for-skill. He knew he couldn't.
     
  7. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    At his best he was a very good tidy compact boxer-puncher with serious power at 160.

    Had all the punches, great doubled up left hook, good combos, nice educated short jab.Could lead or counter equally well.

    Well schooled defensively, if not a notable talent at it or a reflexive speedster.

    Not much of a mover or a particularly special athletic specimen in general really.he was a stocky Duran-esque cube with suspect stamina at 168.Not too sure about his chin as i haven't seen his earlier stoppages.Seemed ok.

    Basically another one of the Hagler era middles that didn't quite have the support or lucky breaks.had to take tough foreign fights and eventually opted to bulk up to an unsuited 168 to get a title shot, with Hagler obviously just going for the more high profile established money fighters by that 85-86 point.Holmes couldn't get fights with the likes of Hamsho far less Marv.

    He destroyed Sutherland and the Park rematch was a controversial one at the time, but it's a fight i need to revisit.Kept winning after it, but not able to get a fight with Nunn, he ended up picking up the IBF belt.

    By that stage he was slowing down a bit, becoming less sharp and not overly fit looking.Most of his defences were dull(not always due to him mind you).Tate was clearly damaged goods following the Nunn humiliation and i remember the Byrd fight could have gone either way.Holmes sluggish and obviously having issues with cautious movement and range.

    The loss to ordinary hypejob Van Horn(already shown up against the mighty Rosi) probably ruined his rep more than anything else.He looked past it and gassed late, getting stopped by some innocuous looking bodyshots.He was much sharper and actually looked as good as he had in a while at times against Eubank-redeeming himself to an extent-though that was the last hurrah for him more or less.
     
  8. sas6789

    sas6789 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I know this is a silly question but what i wanna know is does anyone know the details of the Sanderline Williams fight because like i said he was the only person to ever stop him, the much more highly rated Toney, McClellan, Benn, Barkley etc couldn't do that. Was it stoped on cuts or something? I actually thought Williams beat Barkley and he gave Benn one hell of a fight, baring all that in mind i think that must say something of Holmes.
     
  9. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Eubank has made reference to it in the past, claiming Lindell was 'one of the world's hardest lb4lb punchers' on the strength of it.

    I'd like to know myself. Sanderline was very slippery.

    I do know McClellan dropped him in the 2nd round with a left hook to the body.
     
  10. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I also want 2c it or it least know more about it but i heard Williams was down there (he was also down against McClellan but it was years later and McClellan was also bigger than himself & Holmes) . I think Holmes really hurt him enough 2 get d stoppage but it might still have been due 2 a cut or something . Everything about Lindell Holmes' career is mysterious , just like in Orlin Norris' case .
     
  11. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    I remember Jones in some interviews also spoke highly of Lindell and his power.
     
  12. Vantage_West

    Vantage_West ヒップホップ·プロデューサー Full Member

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    only man to stop sanderline williams

    a guy who fought and drawed/split but outpointed by

    james toney
    nigel benn
    gerald mclellan
    iran barkley
    don lee
    reggie johnson
    merqui sosa
    herol graham

    thats pretty impressive
     
  13. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    There's sparring footage of Jones and Lindell on YouTube I believe.
     
  14. atberry

    atberry Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQKfAO01eU[/ame]
     
  15. sas6789

    sas6789 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    This is the Benn vs Williams fight. He Sure gave Nigel a hard time didn't he?

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaJlG2wpAVs[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr8hUD5_wXs[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01TM7VGj5G8&feature=relmfu[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4kLzhBnPw&feature=relmfu[/ame]