Lineal Champion?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by OLD FOGEY, Feb 22, 2008.


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  1. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    "you can't claim anyone beat the man who beat the man post Gene Tunney because he took the true lineal title to his grave."

    No, he abdicated the title, a term they used to use for a champion retiring. If he retires and abdicates the title, the title is vacant. He is no longer champion, lineal or otherwise.
    When Edward VIII abdicated as King of England, he did not as the Duke of Windsor carry the monarchy to his grave. His brother became king.

    In boxing, if a champion abdicates his title, someone will succeed sooner or later and what we are debating is what is the criteria for the succession. I think no serious person would doubt at least Joe Louis' claim to the title as he defeated all rivals, major or otherwise. Gene Tunney had not fought for a decade.

    I think following Tunney there could be some question about Schmeling's right to the championship as he established his claim on a foul. Sharkey, though, with his win over Schmeling in 1932, and previous wins over Loughran, Carnera, Stribling, and Godfrey, I think established himself as the legitimate champion.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    #16
  2. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think if you are trying to go down that path to claim The World Heavyweight Champion then it only became legitmate with Carnera's victory over Uzcudun, both being the two fighters who beat the fighters, who beat the fighters of the two best claimants post Tunney (Carnera's case: the line from Sharkey/SchmelingI; Uzcudun's: the line from the reigning black (negro) champion of the time of Tunney's retirement: Larry Gains
     
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    #17
  3. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't quite follow the logic on the reigning black champions--Sharkey held wins over Wills and Godfrey. Also, Gains defeated Carnera. Uzcudun beat Wills a year after Sharkey did, but lost to Godfrey.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    #18
  4. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The logic would be, with Tunney's retirement, Gains would hold the only claim to a World Heavyweight Championship, that being the kingpin of the Blacks.

    Sure his claim was not so strong, but to become a truly recognized Heavyweight World Champion, you would need to beat Gains or the person/people who beat Gains to give yourself truly universal recognition. An achievement that Carnera acccomplished with the victory over Uzcudun.
     
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    #19
  5. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What has Uzcudun to do with it? When did he defeat Gains? None of these men defeated Gains. Sharkey beat Wills and Godfrey. Uzcudun defeated Wills, but lost to Godfrey. Carnera lost to Gains.

    But the black championship was provincial, sort of like the British Empire title. One had to be black to hold it, otherwise Sharkey would have won it from Wills or Godfrey, Dempsey would have won it from Sharkey, and Tunney would have won it from Dempsey.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 23, 2008
    #20
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I guess that if the original contract contradicts boxrec then the original contract must be wrong.
     
    janitor, Feb 23, 2008
    janitor, Feb 23, 2008
    #21
  7. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not just boxing rec, But Jim Jacobs film collection says it was 25 rounds.
    The legendary Champions makes note of that.
     
    Dempsey1238, Feb 23, 2008
    Dempsey1238, Feb 23, 2008
    #22
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    We all instinctivley look to certain sources but you have to ask which is the primary source?

    If that is what the contract said then that is how it was.
     
    janitor, Feb 23, 2008
    janitor, Feb 23, 2008
    #23
  9. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He was the man who beat the man:

    Tunney retired; Gains was Negro (black) World Champ:

    Gains loses to Neusel, who loses to Charles, who loses to Uzcudun, who loses to Primo....
     
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    TBooze, Feb 23, 2008
    #24
  10. Marciano Frazier

    Marciano Frazier Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The linear champion is generally "the man who beat the man," but, of course, there has to be a first "man" in order for that chain to exist. I think the RING's standard that, in the absence of a current linear champion, if the #1 and #2 contenders face one another, the winner is champion is a good one. After one man retires as champion, another must come and unify major belts or defeat other potential claimants to the point at which he is universally recognized as champion by the public at large, and then the man who beats him and the man who beats that man carry on that lineage until the next one who retires as champion. Having a clear title lineage is best at any time in history in order to avoid all the chaos such as that which we've seen over the last few years. If Wladimir Klitschko beats the Peter/Maskaev winner in a few months, we will have a new linear champion before the end of this year, which will hopefully be a shot in the arm for the rather constipated heavyweight division.
     
    Marciano Frazier, Feb 23, 2008
    Marciano Frazier, Feb 23, 2008
    #25
  11. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Except Gains lost to Seal Harris and the black title eventually passed back to Godfrey before Gains fought Neusel.

    You have a point, though, about the split between the black and white halves of the heavyweight division prior to Joe Louis and the cloud this casts over the legitimacy of the white champions. Sharkey, though, is one of the few white champions of his era to fight and defeat top black contenders.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 24, 2008
    OLD FOGEY, Feb 24, 2008
    #26
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