Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 12, 2010.
It looks like DeJohn finished 1958 ranked 6th, then started 1959 with his loss to Liston.
"Roy Harris climbed into the 28th spot and next year would get a title shot with Patterson."
I am a tough time figuring out how this system works. Baker is #4 in 1957. He was #2 in 1956. I take it that Harris gets no credit for beating Baker because Baker had slipped out of the ratings?
Just a comment not meant as a criticism as I understand you are doing this on a mathematical basis. I am trying to understand the system.
Whom did Miteff beat in 1957 to rate well ahead of Pastrano and Harris? He beat Valdes in 1958, not 1957. His big wins in '57 were over John Holman and Besmanoff. And he got blown out in one round by DeJohn. Holman had already lost to Baker and Pastrano, who both lost to Harris, and Besmanoff had also lost to Harris. Seems confusing to me.
I was wondering, does this system penalize a fighter for consistently beating opponents, as the opponents then drop in the ratings?
Another thing which confuses me. What is the base rating to start this process? Would the ratings be much different if you start the base at a different point?
Gets into the top ten in 1958 for beating the past it Baker and the practically washed up Charles? But I don't understand why Harris didn't get any credit for beating Baker much earlier when Baker was still winning.
None of this is meant as criticism. Just asking to try to figure out how this system works.
Could you elaborate on why Zuany rates above Harris in 1958?
So coming in at number 13 is “breaking into” the top ten??
Didn't you say he didn't break into the 1958 rankings? Boilermaker made a top 30 list. Liston made it.
By the way, officially Liston did break the RING magazine and NBA top 10 after he defeated bethea in 58.
So Liston was a top 10 fighter in 1958
This is purely Lineal, and purely based on official results. At first i used CBZ (which had no Decisions) but now everything is solely boxrec, as we have based the Newspaper decision era, which i called draws. The process is simple. Like with the world championships, if number 100 beats number 7, then Number 100 becomes number 7 and number 7 becomes number 8. (Number 8 would become 9, 9 would become 10 Etc).
Regarding the Baker & Harris question, i will look back and check. It is possible i made a mistake and missed a win, but i will check (might take me a while to fix if i did).
Regarding the starting point, YOu have to go back to the first post where i put a link to a jack johnson thread which started this all off (about halfway through that thread). I started from before the 1900s (from memory) and i used Matt Donnellans rankings as a starting point which i think most agree are about as good as it gets. To be honest, i dont think the starting point would make much of a difference at all as the system always seems to right itself eventually. I think you could start anywhere, and use any starting point as the ratings system and would end up with the same or substantially the same result after a while. Although i confess i have not actually tried this theory.
Miteff beat Mederos who beat Satterfield who was ranked ahead of Pastrano and Harris.
Regarding Zuany, Baker had lost some fights, but the guys who beat him kept winning so he still held a high ranking. Without looking back at Baker Harris situation, i am pretty sure from memory that although Baker was still winning he had not yet beat a higher ranked fighter, so "better' fighters than him had lost to others and Bakers rank was not as high. I am guessing that Harris beat Baker before Baker himself had a high rank and after this, Baker beat someone who is ranked higher. This means that Baker gets the credit instead of Harris, even though Harris beat Baker. i try to write pre rank where this happens.
With regards to losing, a figher does not get penalised for losing to a higher ranked fighter, in any way at all. If a higher ranked fighter does lose a fight, how much he is penalised will depend on how much the fighter that beat him wins or loses fights and who to. if you lose to someone who goes 10 years without losing you might only lose one spot. But if you lose to a fighter who loses is next 10 fights, you will quickly find yourself slipping out of the ratings.
Hope that helps.
He was considered a standard run of the mill gooftrooper at this stage.
Do you consider Roy Harris a soft defense for patterson?
1 Floyd Patterson - W Johansen
2 Ingemar Johansen - L Patterson
3 Liston - W Williams, Harris, Foley, Machen
4 Folley - W Machen, Besmanoff Clarence Williams L Liston
5 Machen - W Hunter Miteff bethea L Folley Liston
6 Pete Rademacher - W Chuvalo Clark and others L London (pre rank)
7 Willie Besmanoff W King L Rademacher, (pre rank rise) Cleroux, Moore, Folley & others
8 Howard King - W Jackson Fuller L Willie Besmanoff
9 Hans Kalbfell - W Jackson L Richardson (prerank)
10 Tommy Jackson - W O donnell L king Kalfbell
11 Henry Cooper W Harris, Miteff
12 George Chuvalo L Radmacher, Cleroux W Cleroux
13 Bob Cleroux W Besmanoff, Harris, Chuvalo & Others L Chuvalo
14 Roy Harris - W hall L cooper Cleroux Liston
15 Mike Dejohn - W Hunder, Richardson
16 Powell D King W Carter
Floyd regains the title.
Machen doing well against lower top 10 fighters until he loses to foley and later Liston. Liston is starting his impressive run, Ripping through the top 10 on what will be an eventual rise to the top.
It is funny how the all time legends actually seem to always work their way through the lineal top 10 while many others who often become internet darlings as underated contenders simply are not as successful in these times. Obviously politics sometimes plays a part and good fighters can sneak under the radar especially when these rankings are not publicised but still it is interesting.
The hurricane looks like causing a blip with his losses, but we will see where they take us.
Pete Rademacher is a surprise. Didn’t think he d make it into the top 10.
Roy Harris struggling with a top 15 ranking, suzy!
I knew Sonny Liston would not break into a realy high ranking until 1960 because his opponents until that year were losing fights. This system makes the most sense. Good work.
1 Floyd Patterson - W Johansen, McNeeley
2 Ingemar Johansen - L Patterson
3 Liston - W King, Westphal
4 Greg Logan - W Rademacher, Riggins & others L Alongi, Young Jack Johnson (pre rank)
5 Alejandro Lavarante - W Folley, Besmanoff, Von Clay & Others L Logan
6 Folley - W Marshall, Moore, Cooper
7 Johnson - Machen & others
8 Machen - W Sawyer, Dejohn, London Jones L H Johnson
9 Doug Jones - W McCoy, Rademacher, Von Clay L Machen
10 Tony Alongi - W Greg Logan & others
11 Archie Moore - W Rademacher, Rinaldi, Turman
12 Pete Rademacher - W Fleeman, Taylor, Vanderford L Jones, Logan, Moore
13 Amos Lincoln W Jackson, Fuller, Young Jack Johnson L
14 Roger Rischer - W Young jack Johnson, Barrow, Ratliffe
15 Karl Mildenberger W Young jack Johnson, Bethea, King & Others
16 Young Jack Johnson - W Besmanoff, Logan, Ahsman, Robinson L Lincoln Rischer Mildenberger
17 Bob Cleroux - W Carter, Harris, Miteff, Chuvalo
18 Joe Erskine - W Chuvalo L Cooper (pre rank)
19 Chuvalo - W Miteff, Besmanoff L Cleroux, Erskine
20 Ali - W Clarke, Johnson, Miteff, Besmanoff & others
21 Willie Besmanoff W Young jack Johnson, Chuvalo lavarante Ali
22 Howard King - W Richardson L Liston, Mildenberger
Snap- Thanks To Choklab, i now feel like an avenger chasing an infinity stone. Apparently i missed Lavorante's win over Zora Foley. 1961 is now fixed, not sure what effect it will have on later years though.
Interesting that the top 4 stays the same.
And Harold Johnson makes his way back into the top 5 in the middle of what would become a 19 fight winning run, by my count.
Tony Alongo snuck into the top 10 by winning his 29th fight in a row. A good run, destined to finish in his next fight though. Alongo is interesting still. He would go on to fight George Chuvalo and Jerry Quarry twice. All three fights would end in draws. Yet Chuvalo and Quarry are considered by most on here as 10 times the fighter Alongo is, who is simply forgotten or not known by most. Maybe he was a bit better than usually given credit for.
I have to be honest, Chuvalo seems to have been a lot more successful in the 70s than in the 60s. Is this indicative of a drop in standards in the heavyweight division?
Good to see Muhammed Ali sneaking into the top 20 in just his second year as a pro.
I have magazines where Tony Alongi is seen as the next big thing around this time. I think I read somewhere he was hung up on being undefeated like Marciano and just lost all interest when his unbeaten record was spoiled. A pity, he must have had reasonable potential.
I was thinking the same thing. If you think of the guys the champions beat to get to the title it’s no wonder they were able to maintain a championship. Joe Louis, Marciano and Liston spring to mind. Liston beating Harris Foley And Machen when he did puts him into the same position as Marciano and Joe Louis before they won titles.
1 Liston - W Patterson
2 Floyd Patterson - L Liston
3 Ingemar Johansen - W Bygraves, Snoek, Richardson
4 Bob Cleroux - W M cNeeley Cherokee Davis L Folley DeJohn
5 Muhammed Ali - Logan, Daniels, Lavorante, Moore, Banks, Warner
6 Greg Logan - L Cleroux Ali
7 Archie Moore - W Lavarante, King D Pastrano L Ali
8 Franco De Piccoli W Sawyer, butler Riggins & others
9 John Riggins - W Lavorante L Spencer, Rush, Powell (pre rank) De Piccoli
10 Alejandro Lavarante - L Moore, Ali, Riggins
11 Doug Jones - L Johnson, Folley(pre rank) D Shoppner W Foster, Folley
12 Zora Folley - W Dejohn, Cleroux, Jones & Others L Jones
13 Harold Johnson - W Jones Scholz
14 Eddie Machen - W Whitehurst, Rischer, D Williams
15 Willie Pastrano - McNeeley, Ryan, Diaz D Moore
16 Gregorio Peralta - W Diaz & Others
17 Rodolpho Diaz - W Alongi, Alonzo Johnson, Rent L Pastrano Peralto
18 Tony Alongi - W De grazio L diaz
19 Billy Daniels W DeJohn Chapman L Ali (Pre Rank)
20 Mike Dejohn - Whitehurst, Cleroux, L Folley Daniels
21 **** Richardson - W Mildenberger L Johanson
22 Karl MildenbergerW Alonzo Johnson, Rademacher, Henry, Frisco Bygraves L Richardson
23 Pete Rademacher - W Olson L Mildenberger
Snap - Lavorante timeline has now been corrected.
The top 3 remain unchanged, although in hindsight, I think it would have been great to have a liston Johnasen title shot.
Doug Jones produced a bit of magic with the Folley win allowing him to leapfrog a couple. Still, it is interesting that he is inside the top 10.
Harold Johnson is doing pretty good.
Muhammed Ali was still working through the fighters ranked 10 -20.
Interesting that Former Sugar Ray Robinson opponent Bobo Olsen failed to sneak into the top 20 when he lost to Pete Rademacher, who debuted against Paterson in a world title fight.
**** Richardson Finished a 19 fight win streak of Karl Mildenberg but he failed in his attempt to step up the compentition when he was Kod by 3rd Ranked Ingemar Johansson
1 Liston - W Paterson
2 Floyd Patterson - L Liston
3 Ingemar Johansen - W London
4 Ernie Terrell - w Young Jack Johnson, Foley, Williams, Siler
5 Zora Folley - W Cleroux, Collins, Daniels L Terrell
6 Bob Cleroux - W Tisdale, Jackson, Sawyer Hughes L Folley
7 Muhammed Ali - W Powell, Jones and Cooper
8 Jefferson Davis - W Cooper Collins L Spencer & Others (pre rank)
9 John Collins - W McMurray Riggins Kelley L McMurray Davis Folley
10 Todd Herring - Degrazio Moore Lee McMurray Johnson
11 Bill Mc Murray - W Logan, Collins, Stephen L Collins, Herring, Machen
12 Greg Logan W Fields L Mc Murray
13 Archie Moore - W Dibiase
14 Mildenberg - W Ritter, Clay Bethea Erskine Daniels
15 Wayne Bethea W - De Piccoli, Migliani L Mildenberg
16 Ulli Ritter W Shiel Kraus L Mildenberg & others (pre rank)
17 Dave Ould - W Shiel, Gray & Others L Bodell (pre rank)
18 Ray Shiel W Bygraves L Ritter, Ould
19 Santo Amonti W Bygraves, Warner D Bethea
20 Gerard Zech - W Bygraves, Westphal & Others
21 Joe Bygraves W - De Piccoli L Shiel Amanti Zech
22 Franco De Piccoli W King, Welch, Hughes L Bethea, Bygraves
23 Franco De Piccoli W Sawyer, butler Riggins & others
24 John Riggins - W Lavorante L Spencer, Rush, Powell (pre rank) De Piccoli
25 Alejandro Lavarante - L Moore, Ali, Riggins
26 Doug Jones - W Daniels L Ali
27 Gregorio Peralta - W Pastrano, Benitez and others
28 Willie Pastrano - W Johnson, Thornton L ThorntonPeralto
29 Wayne Thornton - W Menno, Pestrano L Peralta Pastrano D Pastrano
30 Harold Johnson - W merryl Hank L Pastrano
31 Eddie Machen - W Wwilson Johnson McMurray Bailey
32 Rodolpho Diaz - W Henry
33 Cleveland Williams - W Daniels, Young Jack Johnson, Barrow, Rische L Terrell
34 Billy Daniels W Alongi L Williams, Jones, Foley Mildenberg
35 Tony Alongi - W Snipes, Warner L Daniels D Chuvalo
36 Billy Daniels W Alongi L Williams, Jones, Foley Mildenberg
37 George Chuvalo - W Brooks, Wakefield, Gardner, Washington De Jong D Alongi
38 Mike Dejohn - W Atley, Mcateer, Thomas L Chuvalo
39 Henry Cooper W Richardson L Ali
40 **** Richardson - L Henry Cooper
Snap - That Lavorante loss made a huge difference to the lower top 10 and 20 contenders. Doug Jones the big loser from it and probably Cleroux as the big winner. Also interesting to say that Foley has actually leapfrogged Muhammed Ali, bit of a surprise there. And i certainly hope i havent made any more of those type of errors.
The top 3 remain the same, with Muhammed ali moving into 4th place and making a pretty strong top 4.
Terell charging into the 6th with a good run of wins
Peralta was in the middle of a lengthy winstreak based mostly out of Argentina that thrust him into the top 10.
Chuvalo really struggling to break into the rankings
Billy Daniels wasn’t too successful, but his level of competition certainly seemed pretty good.
It is fascinating someone like George Chuvalo, who is so highly rated nowadays, compared to most fighters listed, really struggling to step up the competition. He put together a run of wins but faltered when meeting 17 ranked Tony Alongi with a draw.
Bob Cleroux finished the last year before a 5 year retirement with some good wins but failed to break into the top 10 against Zora Folley
Archie Moore marks the end of a fantastic career finishing in the top 30.
One interesting thing i noticed about this year in particualr is that most of those older fighters from the 50s seemed to hang around quite a bit, and retired with only the solid top 10 or so guys usually beating them. Most retired in the top echelon and didnt seem to really lose to fighters with losing streaks, often. I wonder why that is?
Didnt Lavorante beat Foley before he lost to Moore?