Lineal Rankings System

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004

    Yes, i am afraid he did. It has now been fixed up. It created a big change, mostly because of Lavorante's upset Loss to Riggins who subsequently lost to an out of form Joe Bygraves who was DQd against a poorly performing Ray Shiel.
    choklab likes this.
  2. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Muhammed Ali - W Liston
    2 Sonny Liston - L Ali
    3 Floyd Patterson - W Amonte, Machen, Powell
    4 Ernie Terrell - w Zech, Davis, Foster Wallich
    5 Zora Folley - W Chuvalo, Herring, Zech D Meldenberg
    6 Jefferson Davis - W Johnson, Johnson, Boone, Crear L Terrell
    7 Roger Rischer - W McMurray, Powell Richardson Cooper
    8 Charley Powell - W Collins Mc Muray L Rischer, Patterson
    9 John Collins - L Powell
    10 Todd Herring - W Rogers L Foley
    11Elmer Rush - W Ray, McMurray, Carter
    12 Bill Mc Murray - L Powell, Rush, Rishcher
    13 Greg Logan No Fights
    14 Karl Mildenberg - W McBride, Amonti, Wilson D Johnson, Foley
    15 Ray Paterson - W Ritter Davey, Norling & others L Norling (pre rank)
    16 Klaus Peter Gumpert - W Ritter & Others
    17 Buddy Turman - W Ritter & Others L Lotter (Pre Rank)
    18 Ulli Ritter W Kraus and Snoek L R Patterson, Gumpert and Turman
    19 Dave Ould - W Shiel, Roy & Hobbs L
    20 Amos Lincoln W Spencer, Leslie, Fletcher L Fletcher(Pre rank)
    21 Thad Spencer W shield Johnson, Wilson, Mcneeley L Lincoln
    22 Rudolf Vaughan - W Shiel, Gray, Hassett, james
    23 Ray Shiel W Gray, Mack L Ould, Spencer, VAughan
    24 Santo Amonti W Johnson & others L Patterson Mildenberger
    25 Gerard Zech - W Badalassi Frido L Foley Terrell
    26 Billy Walker W Bygraves, Nielson Erskine L Nielson
    27 Billy Nielsen W Walker Prescott L Walker
    28 Joe Bygraves L Walker
    29 Franco De Piccoli W Norling & Others

    Muhammed Ali starts what should be a pretty impressive run. it will be interesting to compare his reign at the top to that of Johnson, Louis and others, to see if he can hold victory over as many lineal challengers, at any point.

    Johansen, Moore and Cleroux dropping out of the rankings due to retirement, although Cleroux would launch a pretty good comeback in 5 years time.
  3. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

    Nov 15, 2011
    I guess the top 5 are going to stay pretty stable for a while, since they all went on long streaks where they were either undefeated or lost only to men already ranked ahead of them.
  4. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Muhammed Ali - W Liston, Patterson
    2 Sonny Liston - L Ali
    3 Floyd Patterson - W Chuvalo, Herring L Ali
    4 Ernie Terrell - w Machen, Chuvalo
    5 Zora Folley - W Foster, Bonavena
    6 Karl Mildenberg - W Davis, Zech & Others
    7 Jefferson Davis - W Moore Firch Richardson Westphal
    8 Amos Lincoln - W Spencer, Davis & Others L Amonei (pre rank)
    9 Thad Spencer - W Leslie, Daniels, Rischer L Lincoln
    10 Brian London - W Masteghin, Walker, Rischer
    11 Roger Rischer - L Spencer London
    12 Oscar Bonavena W Peralta, Corletti, Daniels & Others L Folley
    13 Corletti - W Walker, Bracco D Cane, Walker, Westphal Penna L Bonanvena
    14 Billy Walker W Powell L London, Corletti
    15 Charley Powell L Walker
    16 John Collins - No Fights
    17 Elmer Rush - W Herring howard Rogers Johnson & Others L Herring D Machen
    18 Todd Herring - W Rush L Patterson Rush
    19 Bill Mc Murray - No fights
    20 Greg Logan W Davey, Joyner D Davey
    21 Bob Stallings W Wepner & others L Mathis, & Others (Pre Rank)
    22 Chuck Wepner W Tomasetti, R Patterson L Stallings
    23 Westphal - W Snoek, Patterson L Bygraves Davison (pre rank)
    24 Ray Paterson - W Bline Kraus & others L Wepner, Westphal, Snoek D Corletti
    25 Giulio Rinaldi W Gumpert & Others
    26 Klaus Peter Gumpert - W Quellier, Reaux L

    Karl Mildenberg becomes the first person to break into the top 10 with his win over Jefferson Davis. He seems to have been quite clearly the best of those campaining in europe around this time.

    Corletti is an interesting fighter. Made the rankings with a win over Billy walker but he certainly had an extraordinary amount of draws this year against mostly unranked fighters.

    Bill McMurray had a year off. I am guessing he was jailed because he was very busy every other year of his career.

    Chuck Wepner surpised by making the top 25 so early in his career, but then lost to Bob Stallings, who seemed to be nothing more than a tester for debutants and new fighters. Stallings lost to several debutants this year and is probably the worst fighter overall to appear in these rankings (based solely on records) at least since the early days when records were incomplete but probably including those times.

    Giulio Rinaldi snuck into the top 25 with a good run which saw him win the European Light heavyweight title.

    A clear top half dozen or so has emerged. The rest are struggling. I think it has to be said that there seems to be a lack of talent in these times outside the top 10 when compared to most earlier eras (using this system). Maybe I am wrong though.
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Muhammed Ali - W chuvalo, cooper London Mildenberger Williams
    2 Sonny Liston - W Zech Johnson
    3 Floyd Patterson - W Cooper
    4 Ernie Terrell - w Jones
    5 Zora Folley - W Davis Clark
    6 Karl Mildenberg - W Machen Prebeg L Ali
    7 Henry Cooper - W Hilton Davis L Ali Patterson
    8 Al Jones - W Forte Davis Moore & Others L Frazier
    9 Jefferson Davis - W harris Siler L Cooper Foley Jones
    10 Johnny Persol - W Johnson Jacobs Woody Lincoln
    11 Amos Lincoln - W Daniels Rush Persol
    12 Thad Spencer - W Leslie, Daniels, Rischer London L Lincoln
    13 Brian London - W Johnson L Spencer Ali
    14 Roger Rischer - No Fights
    15 Frazier - W A Jones, Daniels bonavena Machan
    16 Oscar Bonavena W Giorgetti Chuvalo Johnson & others L Giorgetti Frazier
    17 Corletti W Chuvalo, Giorgetti & Others
    18 Santiago Lovell - Giorgetti Vazquez & others
    19 Jose Giorgetti - Bonavena, Vasquez & others L Giorgetti Lovell
    20 Billy Walker W Norling Patterson & others
    21 Boone Kirkman - W Collins Ray 7 others
    22 John Collins - L Kirkman
    23 Elmer Rush - W Daniels L lincoln
    24 Todd Herring - L C Williams
    25 Bill Mc Murray - Stininato Jackson Richardson Spencer Spencer L Richardson
    26 Willie Ray Richardson - W McMurray Henderson Burwell L Mc Murray
    27 Buster Mathis - W Stallings, Copeland & Others
    28 Lee Carr - W Stallings, Vick L Woody (pre rank)
    29 Jack Bodell - Amonti Stalling & others L Spnencer Thomasini Pre rank
    30 Chuck Wepner W Tomasetti, & others

    By my count, Ali at this stage holds a win over 5 of the top 7 contenders, but with wins over Folley and Terrell coming it will put him close to Louis and Johnson as having shown complete domination ove the top challengers. Once again an ATG champ has no trouble in completely dominating the lineal challengers.

    Interesting that Johnny Persol snuck into the top 10. Not only did he beat Amos Big Train Lincoln, but he also beat former great Harold Johnson to establish his run.

    Not sure of the circumstances of the DQ victory by Giorgetti over Bonavena so I am sure this is going to cause a bit of blip in the rankings.

    Interesting to see Frazier arrive on the scene. It does seem that the 70s heavys are starting to emerge with an interesting changing of the guard. Frazier actually beat an Al Jones but it is a different Al Jones who is listed as the 8th ranked fighter.

    I have to say with Bonavena, Giorgetti, Corletti,Lovell it seems a real golden age for Argentian heavyweight fighters.
    choklab likes this.
  6. sweetsci

    sweetsci Active Member Full Member

    Jan 22, 2008
    I finally went back and figured out how Boilermaker's system works. Now that I understand it, it's really quite interesting. Any personal opinions are taken out; it's simply who beat whom (something that a few posters along the way didn't seem to understand). I'm looking forward to this moving through the next few decades and into the present day.
    choklab likes this.
  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Muhammed Ali - W Terrell folley
    2 Sonny Liston - W Bailey rush
    3 Jerry Quarry - w A jones, london, Miteff, Patterson D Patterson
    4 Floyd Patterson - W Johnson Mc Murray D Quarry L Quarry
    5 Thad Spencer - W Lincoln Terrell
    6 Manuel Ramos - W Terrell & others
    7 Ernie Terrell - L Ali, Spencer, Ramos
    8 Brian London - W Woodey Folley L Quarry
    9 Zora Folley - W Joyner, kindred sosa L Ali London
    10 Jimmy Ellis - W Persol Martin Bonavena
    11 Oscar Bonavena W Meldenberger Vazquez & Others L Ellis
    12 Karl Mildenberg - W Thomasoni Walker lincoln Zech L Bonavena
    13 Henry Cooper - W Jacobs bodell walker
    14 Al Jones - w Forte Stallings & Others
    15 Joe Fazier - W jones Davis Johnson & others
    16 Jefferson Davis - W Johnson L Frazier
    17 Johnny Persol - W Clay moraes L Ellis
    18 Mel turnbow - W Wheeler Fletcher
    19 Jimmy Fletcher W Lincoln Joyner L Turnbow
    20 Amos Lincoln - W Ray Rosette L Fletcher Mildenberg Spencer
    21 Henry Clark - W McMurray lewis machen rischer & others
    22 Roger Rischer - W Lewis L London Clark
    23 Corletti W bygraves Debruyn & others
    24 Piero Tomasini - W Cane Hilton L mildenberger d Joiner
    25 Carl Gizi - W Ros, Campbell Hilton
    26 Hubert Hilton - L Bonavena Tomasini Gizzi
    27 Santiago Lovell - W Paez binitez & Others L Hilton
    28 Jose Giorgetti - Bonavena
    29 Billy Walker W Rinaldi L Mildenberger Cooper
    30 Boone Kirkman - W Norling Machen Jones and others L Jones
    31 Doug Jones W Kirkman L Frazier Kirkman

    Ali finishes the year on top and under the rules established, he retires, at the end of the year.

    Patterson moves to third as he has a very impressive year

    Ernie Terrell had a bad year with three losses.

    Al Jones has some solid wins including a win over the other Al jones. He actually has a pretty good win loss ratio. Anyone know anything about him?
    sweetsci and choklab like this.
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009

    Reading through angelo dundee's biography i came across a heavyweight he had in miami called Al jones who he wanted to fight joe frazier. Jones was rated in 1969 and whilst angelo felt jimmy ellis was all wrong for frazier he wanted his other heavyweight to face him first because he felt jones was all wrong for Frazier and could have given him fits. Has anyone seen Jones fight? I found this on boxrec about jones.

    "According to an article written by
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    in the April 1968 issue of The RingMagazine, Al Jones was born on December 28, 1943 in Princeton, Florida. He was raised in the small town of Goulds, which was 15 miles from downtown Miami, Florida. He graduated from Mays High School and served in the U.S. Army at Ford Gordon, Georgia as an infantryman. Upon his discharge, the 6 feet 6 inch. Jones worked at various jobs: nightclub bouncer, meatpacker, and mortuary assistant.
    One of five children, he decided to become a professional boxer to assist his family. After going 5-0, with five knockouts in the local amateur boxing program, Jones turned pro in Miami Beach, Florida under famed trainer
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    . Jones built his skills at the famed 5th Street Gym, working as a sparring partner for
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    , and
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    . After losing his debut, Jones streaked to 33 straight victories and a top 10 ranking in the heavyweight division. Among his victories were top contenders
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    However, Jones broke his hand in a 1970 bout. A year later, he broke it again. In 1972, his steak ended after he broke his hand yet a third time. Jones retired from the ring,and invested in a large apartment complex in Opa Locka, Florida. The Al Jones Apartments became a tourist attraction as well, as it featured a towering gigantic cut-out of Jones in fighting pose. In 1975, Jones fought two exhibitions with 6 foot 8 inch.
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    . A year later, the comeback bug bite him, and Jones returned to the ring with a 1st round knockout of 240lbs.
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    , and an upset 10 round nod over
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    who was 22-3. On the verge of a title match, Jones broke his hand yet again and was unable to continue against
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    . Thus ended the career of South Florida's brightest heavyweight hope."
    sweetsci likes this.
  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Sonny Liston - W McMurray, Rischer Clarke walker lincoln & others
    2 Jimmy ellis - W Quarry Patterson
    3 Jerry Quarry - w spencer mumford Earls L Ellis
    4 Floyd Patterson - L Ellis
    5 Joe Frazier W mathis ramos bonavena
    6 Oscar Bonavena - W folley Martin fletcher & others L Frazier
    7 Leotis Martin - W Mildenberger clarke spencer lewis L Bonavena Clarke (pre rank)
    8 Billy Walker - W Thad Spencer
    9 Thad Spencer - L Quarry Martin Walker
    10 George chuvalo W Forte Ramos & others
    11 Manuel Ramos - Wreiter Franklin L Frazier Chuvalo
    12 Robert Davilla W London Johnson L Bonvavena
    13 Jack Bodell - W Presott Venn london turbon
    14 Brian London - W L Davilla Bodell D Clarke
    15 Zora Folley - D Russell A Jones L Bonavena
    16 Henry Cooper - W Mildenberger Tomasoni
    17 Karl Mildenberger - L Martin Cooper
    18 Al Jones - w Blow Batts & others D Foley
    19 Johnny Persol - Wbruce Oquendo
    20 Buster Mathis - W Turnbow Lincoln Woody & others L Frazier
    21 Mel turnbow - L Mathis Bodell
    22 Jimmy Fletcher W Wallace Bonavena
    23 Amos Lincoln - W Orbillo L Mathis Liston
    24 Henry Clark - W Martin Gilmore D London L Liston
    25 Roger Rischer - W Corletti L Liston
    26 Alvin Lewis - W Russell Stallings Featherman Colletti L Martin
    27 Corletti W Jose Stallings Wallace Lovell L Lewis Rischer
    28 Piero Tomasini - W Stallings Woody Bling
    29 Carl Gizi - W Walford Gray L Bodell
    30 Mac Foster - W Hilton Moore Burns & Others
    31 Hubert Hilton - L Foster
    32 Santiago Lovell - W Jordan Leslie L Corletti
    33 Jose Giorgetti - W Benassi
    34 Boone Kirkman - W Lannum Copeland McMurray
    35 Doug Jones W Kirkman L Frazier Kirkman
    1968 starts in an interesting manner. Sonny Liston actually inherits the title back from Muhammed Ali, when Ali Was Stripped / retired for three years. His lengthy win streak that year was a whose who of the10-30 ranked fighters over the last few years.

    Jimmy Ellis ranks second, as WBA world champion.

    Joe Frazier looking ominous in 5th place.

    George Chuvalo finally sneaks into the top 10 with a win over Ramos.

    Ernie Terrell's 3 year break is viewed as a retirement under the rules I have established.

    Johnny Persol scored a win over Angel Oquendo to stay in the top 10. I wonder if Angel is related to Fres Oquendo? Anyone know.

    Mac Foster sneaking into the rankings on the back of a long run against lower ranked fighters.

    I could be wrong, but it does seem that the quality/depth outside the top 10 is really dropping. There doesn’t seem to be as many guys cappable of competin with the top fighters.
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    I recognize this system works, i never would have guessed Sonny Liston would rank higher than Frazier for this year, but taking inti account wins etc it works.
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    I recognize this system works, i never would have guessed Sonny Liston would rank higher than Frazier for this year, but taking inti account wins etc
  12. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    Looking ahead, it is interesting that Leotis Martin, who actually beat Sonny is currently ranked 7th. So even when he did lose, he lost to one of the top 10. It is starting to get really interesting as the alphabet age slowly approaches. I think this would be easily the best system, if it was publicicised and used as an official rankings for all organisations. I actually think it should be.

    So far, i still say that Chuvalo has been the most surprisingly poor performer of most of the well known fighters. The rise of the likes of Foreman, Norton, Ali and others in the coming years should be very interesting.
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Yes I think with this system some of the so called upsets might not have been so surprising. I can already suspect that under these rules Muhammad Ali, Buster Douglas, Hasim Rahman and Andy Ruiz jnr being rated pretty darn high at the moment of their upset. This system should be official.
  14. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    It will also be interesting to see how high some of Wlad and Vitali's comp will rate and where some of the alpha champs rank at the time of their reign. I have to be honest though, there is so little fighting amongst the top 10 contenders that i do wonder whether or not i will be able to maintain a top 20 or so nowadays.
    choklab likes this.
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 6, 2004
    1 Leotis Martin - W Liston
    2 Sonny Liston - W Joiner Johnson Moore L Martin
    3 Jimmy ellis - No Fights
    4 Joe Frazier W Zigglewicz Quarry
    5 George Chuvalo - W Harris Borden Quarry
    6 Jerry Quarry - w Mathis, London, Carroll & Others L mathis Frazier Chuvalo
    7 Floyd Patterson - No Fights
    8 Oscar Bonavena - W Lovell Homberg Pires D Paralta
    9 Jack Bodell - W Walker jordan roman gizzi
    10 Billy Walker - L Bodell
    11 Mac Foster - W Rischer Spencer Williams & Others
    12 Thad Spencer - L Foster
    13 Buster Mathis - W Chuvalo L Quarry
    14 Jack O Halloran - W Ramos Gizzi Hines L Roman bugner doyle jones (pre rank)
    15 Roman - W O Halloran Wepner & Others L Bodell
    16 Foreman - W Wepner De villa Forte & others
    17 Manuel Ramos - W Doyle L O Halloran
    18 Chuck Wepner - W Davilla Bruce Agosto L Roman Foreman
    19 Santiago Lovell - W davilla benitez & others L Bonavena
    20 Robert Davilla W Cane de la cruse L Wepner lovell foreman
    21 Jim Fletcher - W Brian London
    22 Brian London - W L Fletcher Quarry D Clarke
    23 Zora Folley - W Moore Sims Joiner
    24 Henry Cooper - W Tomasoni
    25 Al Jones - w Williams Clarke O Halloran
    26 Jimmy Dupree - W Johnson Persol Zerheide E Jones
    27 Johnny Persol - W Leslie L Dupree
    28 Charles Williams W Turnbow A Jones Johnson Smith L A Jones
    29 Mel turnbow - L Mathis Bodell
    30 Tony Doyle - W O halloran lincoln & Others L Ramos
    31 Amos Lincoln - L Doyle
    32 Jeff merritt - W Clarke Russell & others
    33 Henry Clark - W Dunlop Stallings L Jones Merritt D London
    34 Alvin Lewis - W McMurray L Martin

    Interesting that Sonny liston loses to the 7th ranked Leotis Martin, who has to retire and technically joins Rocky Marciano, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney and Muhammed Ali as the 5th person to retire as World Lineal Heavyweight Champion!

    George Chuvalo finally starts to establish himself in the top 10. Interesting that it took the retirement of a lot of the early 60s fighters for him and several of the others to start winning at that level. I could be wrong but I got the feeling that the 50s and 60s may have actually had more depth than the 70s which is contrary to popular opinion. I am talking more at the 10-30 level than the top 1 -5 though. No way Chuvalo could have been a top 5 fighter in that era on his form. Does anyone think he improved or is it that the quality dropped?

    Thad Spencer is in the middle of a massive losing streak. On the surface he should probably drop right out of the rankings, but on the other side, his competition isnt that bad.

    Former Superman victim Jack O halloran has shot into the ranking with an upset over Manuel Ramon. He does look vulnerable with a lengthy list of losses prior to earning his ranking.

    Foreman debuts at a solid top 15 level within his first 4 fights.

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