Lineal Rankings System

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Boilermaker, Jul 12, 2010.


  1. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1981
    1 Larry Holmes -W Berbick Spinks Snipes
    2 Trevor Berbick - W Ali, Gardner Nelson L Holmes
    3 Muhammed Ali No fights
    4 Mike Weaver - W Tillis
    5 John Tate - L Steichen Parker Others
    6 Renaldo Snipes - Boone Cummins Mustafa Muhammed Coetzee L Holmes
    7 Gerry Coetzee W Chaplin Caldwell L Snipes
    8 Leon Spinks L Holmes
    9 Randall Cobb - L Dokes (pre rank) W Mercado Terrell
    10 Berrnard Marcado - W Acuna L Cobb
    11 Gerry Cooney W Ken Norton
    12 Ken Norton L Gerry Cooney
    13 Earnie Shavers - W Mims Rogers sims
    14 Michael Dokes - W Chaplin Terrel Gardner cobb
    15 John L Gardner - W Occassio L Dokes
    16 Ossie Occassio - L Gardner
    17 Jimmy Young - W Sims & others
    18 Rochelle Norris - no fights
    19 Floyd Cummins - W Jones L Snipes D Frazier
    20 Marvin Frazier W Epps Pulu Casale Zouski
    21 Steve Zouski - W Parker Hailey L Frazier
    22 John Dino Denis - Warr Halpin Porter Green
    23 Johnny Warr - D Tucker L Denis W Dunbarr
    24 Larry Frazier - W Echolls Rice Schmidt
    25 Fossie Schmidt - W Steichen Ezza L Frazier
    26 Anthony Davis - W Muhammed Ellis & others
    27 Ellis - W Waddud Steichen Williams L Davis Ward (pre rank)
    28 Tony Tucker - W Steichen Jones & others
    29 Jimmy Abott - Steichen Mosondo L Williams (pre rank)
    30 Harvey Steichen - W Alexander Sam & Others L Schmitt Ellis Tucker Abott Tate
    31 Joe Alexander - L Harvey Steichen
    32 Leroy Jones - No fights
    33 Carlos De Leon - W Payne
    34 Marvin Camel - W Draper Muhammed Shannon Ali

    Ken Norton finally retired after his loss to Cooney, just outside the top 10. I must say that his opposition was surpisingly poor overall, compared to what I would have thought.

    Dokes unlucky not to make the top 10 with a good win over cobb happening before Cobbs win over Mercado

    Smoking Joe failed to make it back into the top 20 with his draw with Cummins. Like norton, I got to say his results were a little disappointing.
    Astonishingly, though in contrast, Marvis Frazier, Joes son actually rose to 21st place, just one place behind Cummins. We could have had a high profile revenge match right there and then. Looking at Marvin, he took a year off after this. Anyone know why this is?

    Tony tucker has already moved into the top 30 on a win streak that will ultimately lead him to a mike tyson unification fight.
     
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  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I always thought the Coetzee win over Spinks deserved to have been seen as a huge win at that time. Under this system it is rightly rewarded as such.

    The real fight to decide the best heavyweight in 1979 should have been Holmes vs Coetzee. There really was no grounds for Tate v Coetzee without the WBA intervening. Tate vs Coetzee happening started the cheapening of world heavyweight boxing.

    Tate benefits from beating Coetzee but Larry was the guy who should have gotten there first. under the rules of any earlier era Holmes vs Coetzee would have been a natural in 1979. Not Tate vs Coetzee.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  3. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oct 6, 2004
    1982
    1 Larry Holmes -W Cooney Cobb
    2 Renaldo Snipes - W Berbick L Witherspoon (pre rank)
    3 Trevor Berbick - W Racette Page L Snipes
    4 Michael Dokes - W Ball, Thomas, Weaver
    5 Mike Weaver - L Dokes
    6 John Tate - L Steichen Parker Others
    7 Tim Witherspoon - W Acosta Snipes
    8 Gerry Coetzee W Scmidt Leduax Ward
    9 Leon Spinks W Burnett Brown
    10 Randall Cobb - W shellburg L Holmes
    11 Berrnard Marcado - No fights
    12 Gerry Cooney L Holmes
    13 Pinklin Thomas - W Warr Acosta Williams Tillis
    14 Greg Page - W Young Tillis L Berbick
    15 James Tillis - W Williams Shavers L Page
    16 Santemore - W shavers Cuilo L Green (pre rank)
    17 Earnie Shavers - W Bugner Gardner & Others L Tillis Santemore
    18 Michael Dokes - W Ball Thomas Weaver
    19 John L Gardner - No Fights
    20 Ossie Occassio - W Williams Taylor
    21 Pat Cuillo - W Mims Kate Young Housia L Zouski (pre rank) Santemore
    22 Phillipp Brown - Rodriguez Young & Others
    23 Jimmy Young - L Page Cuillo Brown
    24 Rochelle Norris - D Diggs
    25 Jeff Sims - Epps Cummins Porter
    26 Larry Frazier - Cummings Robbins
    27 Floyd Cummins - L Sims Frazier
    28 Marvis Frazier No Fights
    29 Tony Tubbs - zousky hill parker tinsley
    30 Steve Zouski - W Warr L Cuilo Tubbs
    31 John Dino Denis - W Dixon Schmidt Long
    32 Johnny Warr - L Thomas Zouski
    33 Fossie Schmidt - L Coetzee
    34 Anthony Davis - W podgursky Houck Caldwell

    Leon Spinks remained in the top 10. I have to say, I think his career was a lot better than I had always thought. He had a lot of losses, but the guys who beat him never really lost to anyone other than the best fighters.

    Jimmy Young had an absolute shocker of a year.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    You have noticed a typo, Greg Page listed twice. #14 and #21.

    I’ve been looking for Marty Monroe, Lynn Ball, Evangelista And Stan ward to feature a bit more during this period, but they hardly feature. I guess Page was not such the outstanding contender the WBC thought he was.

    Also I think you might be crediting a few contenders from beating Chuck Gardner rather than John L Gardner. An easy confusion.
     
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    thanks choklab, i will try to fix that all when i get a chance. It is very easy to make mistakes so i appreciate any corrections. Hopefully i havent made too many errors along the way. (Twin Sullivan has become a bit of a tag team effort in these rankings). It doesn really seem to matter too much because the rankings do seem to correct each oher quite quickly. Which year did i make the Gardner mistake?

    It really is obvious just how much damage the sanctioning bodies damaged the sport. It is about now, late 70s and early 80s, that we start to see contenders relying on the zero a lot more. AT least that is the impression i am getting.

    I always thought Leon Spinks just completely lost it after the Ali fight, and obviously he did a bit, but it interesting that every fighter he lost to seemed to keep winning and holding their rankings. I think his career (outside of Ali) was nowhere near as bad as i had previously thought.
     
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  6. sweetsci

    sweetsci Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Or, perhaps, with Ali announcing his retirement, Spinks' people shouldn't have messed with Coetzee and gone straight for Holmes. It makes sense to me: Ali retires, so his previous conquerer gets a shot at the vacant title against top contender Holmes.

    But this is around the time that the sanctioning bodies really started doing their damage. The Ali-Frazier-Ellis stuff in the late sixties was bad enough, as was the WBA stripping Ali for signing for a Liston rematch, but things really started getting stupid in the late seventies.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I could not agree more. This is why we need a linear ranking system. So that people can see for themselves that these governing bodies were not awarding titles to the best in the world ...just the world according to them!

    At the moment wilder is champion because a governing body decided Stiverne and Arreola were the best two fighters in the world after Klitschko retired. They were not. The line of that belt is bogus. It cannot mean “best in the world”.

    A linear ranking shows that the guy is there because he beat somebody who earned that position. Most of the time the best fighter in the world is the champion. And that can never be the case if recognition of a good champion is taken away for changing his religion or for the champ choosing a challenger like Marvin Frazier over Page even though Page lost to a previous challenger.
     
  8. sweetsci

    sweetsci Well-Known Member Full Member

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    What's irritating to me is that people just accept it - sanctioning body bull - without question. Sometimes I wonder of some fans just don't have any concept of ranking fighters according to their accomplishments and ability.
     
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  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I fixed up the Page double ranking as well as another i found with Michael Dokes.

    I think that Gardner is okay. John L (what a historically great name) came into the rankings in 81 with a win over Occassio and then lost to Michael Dokes. The next year in 1982 he had no fights so no one jumped him. Chuck Gardner had losses to Tucker Berbick Tate and others but i dont think it effected any of tehir rankings. Chuck Gardner is an interesting one. He fought Michael Tyson on debut in 1986, but it was a different Mike Tyson!
     
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  10. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I really do think it is ridiculous. when i eventually do get to today, i really hope that someone picks up the ball and runs with it, and maintains proper rankings for the heavyweight division. I think it would be a great thing.
     
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  11. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Oct 6, 2004
    1983

    1 Larry Holmes -W W rodriguez Withersppon Frank Frazier
    2 Greg page - W L Frazier Snipes Kellar
    3 Alfredo Evangelista - W Ware Snipes
    4 Renaldo Snipes - L Page Evangelista
    5 DeLeon W Spinks Gordon Lopez
    6 ST Gordon W Burnett Berbick
    7 Trevor Berbick - W ST Gordon LaCusta
    8 Gerry Coetzee - D Thomas W Dokes
    9 Michael Dokes - D Weaver L Coetzee
    10 Mike Weaver - D Dokes W Ward
    11 John Tate - W long Capasso
    12 Tim Witherspoon - W Tillis Cummings L Holmes
    13 Carlos De Leon - w Spinks St Gordon
    14 Leon Spinks L De Leon
    15 Randall Cobb - W Jameson
    16 Berrnard Marcado - W montes
    17 Gerry Cooney No Fights
    18 Pinklin Thomas - W Ratcliffe Greer Boone D Coetzee
    19 James Tillis - W Boone Daniels Givens Jones L Witherspoon
    20 Marvis Frazier - W Broad Bugner L Holmes
    21 James Broad - W Santemore Pulu Diggs Alexander L Frazier
    22 Eddie Gregg - W Funches Rice Albritton Santemore Sutton
    23 Smith - Santemore Boone & others
    24 Frank Bruno - LeDoux Funches Cummings Santemore & Others
    25 Walter Santemore - W Clarence Hill L Broad Gregg Smith Bruno
    26 Noel Quarless - Fallon Eklund Gardner L Banjo (pre Rank)
    27 John L Gardner - W James Benson L Quarless
    28 Ossie Occasio W Stephens
    29 Pat Cuillo - Wwilliams McDonald Edmonds
    30 Phillipp Brown - No Fights
    31 Tony Tubbs W Givens Young Racette
    32 Jimmy Young - L Tubbs
    33 Jeff Sims - W Greer
    34 Larry Frazier - W hussein L Page
    35 Mitch Green - W Cummings Dixon
    36 Floyd Cummings - L Green Witherspoon Bruno
    37 Marvis Frazier No Fights

    John Tate finishes up inside the top 10, although he will later launch a comeback.

    Holmes has faced just two of the top 10, by my count. Nowhere near as dominant as most of his ATG predecessors. His best defences were Witherspoon at 10 and Frazier at 18.

    Carlos De leon Moves to 11th spot, as Cruiserweight Alphabet holder

    Pinklon Thomas was a little unlucky not to move into the top 10, drawing with Coetzee and having several other wins.

    Michael Dokes Going from 18 to 7 was probably the biggest move.

    It is interesting that Gerry Cooney is always considered the Great White hope, because if there was white heavyweight champion, it would probably be Gerry Coetzee.

    The undefeated Phillipp Brown sits on his ranking for a year.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  12. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1984

    1 Larry Holmes -W Smith
    2 Pinklon Thomas - W Grandham Witherspoon
    3 Tim Witherspoon - W Page L Thomas
    4 David Bey - W Caldwell Page
    5 Greg page - W Coetzee L Witherspoon Bey
    6 Marvis Frazier - Starkey Benton Banjo
    7 Funso Banjo - w Thomas Currie L Frazier
    8 Hughroy Currie W Evangelista La flamme Robertson L
    9 Alfredo Evangelista - W Peurgo L currie
    10 Ricky Parkey - w Cuillo Wilson Snipes Mason L Benton (pre rank)
    11 Renaldo Snipes - L Parkey
    12 DeLeon W Lopez Davis Ali
    13 Trevor Berbick - W Cohen Lee Barr Santemore
    14 Gerry Coetzee - L Greg Page
    15 Michael Dokes -W jameson
    16 Mike Weaver - W anthony
    17 Tim Witherspoon - W Page L Thomas
    18 Carlos De Leon - W Davis Ali
    19 Leon Spinks No Fights
    20 James Douglas W Cobb NC Starkey
    21 Randall Cobb - W Williams Smith Lee L Douglas
    22 Gerry Cooney W Brown Chaplin
    23 Carl Williams - W Benson Mims Tillis
    24 James Tillis - W bennett Waddud L Williams
    25 James Broad - W Thomas Gregg Benjamin
    26 Eddie Gregg - W Trimm Evans Louis L Broad
    27 James Smith - W Bruno Muhammed L Holmes
    28 Frank Bruno - W Figuoa Lakusta JordanBrown L Smith
    29 Tony Tucker - W Santemore Lopez & Others
    30 Walter Santemore - L Tucker Berbick
    31 Jeff Sims W Benson Jones, Nelson Sutton
    32 Conroy Nelson W Quarless Hollis L Sims
    33 Proud Kilimanjaro - W Malpass Power Lee Tiger
    34 Mark Lee W Quarless Butler Katoa L Berbick Cobb Kilimanjaro
    35 Noel Quarless - W Joseph L Nelson Lee

    Larry's only defence was against the 21st ranked (who dropped to 26th) James Bonecrusher Smith.
    Pinklon Thomas makes an interesting no2. He was on a very good win streak at the time.
    David Bey is another who probably looked a lot better at the time than he is remembered.
    Evangelista's lost to local spanish fighter Hughroy Currie has the potential to reak havoc with the lower top 10.
    A year off for Leon Spinks. His high ranking (still top 20) is actually quite amazing.
    Interesting to see James Buster Douglas make his way into the top 20
    Good to see James Broad at 24 fighting (and beating) Eddie Gregg at 25.
    Kilimanjaro was ranked 32 and about to win a fight against none other than Captain Marvel. Some of his opponents throughout his career included Black tiger, Ringo Starr, King Motsi, Flash Chisanko, Jukebox Timebomb, Sam Sithole and the less colourfully named George Foreman. Certainly some promotable fights there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  13. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1985
    1 Michael Spinks - W Sears MacDonald Holmes
    2 Larry Holmes -W Bey Williams L Spinks
    3 Pinklon Thomas - W Weaveer
    4 Tim Witherspoon - W Wills Broad Smith & others
    5 Trevor Berbick W Bey Green
    6 David Bey - L Holmes Berbick
    7 Tony Tubbs - W Miller Smith Page
    8 Greg page - L Tubbs
    8 Marvis Frazier - W Tillis Ribalta
    9 Hughroy Currie W W Banjo Killimanjaro
    10 Funso Banjo - w Ellis L Currie
    11 Alfredo Evangelista - W Velasto pergaut & others
    12 Slobodan Kacar - W Muhammed Osby & Others
    13 Eddie Mustaffa Muhammed - W Booze Holman myers parkey parkes L Kacar
    14 Ricky Parkey - w Crabtree Arms L Muhammed
    15 Renaldo Snipes - No Fights
    16 Alfonzo Ratliffe - W DeLeon L Benton
    17 Carlos De Leon - W Gaymon L Ratliffe
    18 Gerry Coetzee - W Tillis
    19 Michael Dokes -W Louis Cobb
    20 Mike Weaver - L Pinklon Thomas
    21 Bernard Benton - W Ross Benron L Pultz (Pre rank)
    22 Leon Spinks W Fischer Kellar Kane & Others
    23 Carl Williams W Ferguson L Holmes
    24 Jessie Ferguson W Scott Douglas Anthony L Williams
    25 James Douglas W Simpson L Ferguson
    26 Eddie Gregg - W Hernandez Cobb Perkins
    27 Dee Collier W Cobb L Ali, Jameson (pre rank)
    28 Randall Cobb - L Dokes Gregg Collier
    29 Gerry Cooney No fights
    30 James Tillis - L Coetzee, Frazier
    31 James Broad - L Witherspoon
    32 James Smith - W Ribalta L Tubbs Witherspoon
    33 Frank Bruno - W Rodriguez Eklund Frazier
    34 Tony Tucker - W Crabtree Jaco
    35 Walter Falconi - W Agio Figuero Rodrigues
    36 Adilson Rodrigues - W Santmore Robinson & Others L Falconi
    37 Francesco Damiani - W Santemore Keller Rodrigues & Others
    38 Walter Santemore - L Rodrigues Damiani
    39 Jeff Sims W Sutton
    40 Mike Tyson - W
    41 Conroy Nelson L Tyson
    42 Proud Kilimanjaro - W Timebomb Marvel & others L Currie

    Michael Spinks picks up he World Championship. When you look at his lineal ranking at the time and the lack of wins against other top ranked fighters, this really does have to rank up there as one of the greatest World Heavyweight title Upset wins. Maybe it is the biggest upset.

    Witherspoon was very active.

    It is interesting, 7th and 8th ranked fighters fight each other. Hughroy Currie earns the win over Funso Banjo.

    Another strange thing. The same year Michael Spinks becomes world champ straight from the light heavy division, ibf (the lesser of the 3 belts) light heavy champ Kacar moves into the top 11 lineal rankings.

    Very interesting to see iron mike tyson make the top 40 in his debut year.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
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  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I had no idea Evangelista was riding so high at that time, but as the results show, he beat the right guy to deservedly earn that placing.

    Hughroy Currie was British and beat Banjo for the British heavyweight title. Both top ten rated guys were regarded as too inferior for (#33 ranked) Frank Bruno to bother with at that time. He was supposedly aiming higher!!

    Those guys missed out on big paydays.
     
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    To be honest, there doesnt seem to be anywhere near the depth of competition that there was in the 60s and earlier. It seems that young contenders have started to get sold on the idea of long undefeated streaks as opposed to fighting tough compeition as a way to getting better. It is harder to break into the top 10 because the top 10 rarely lose any fights, but on the flip side, a lot of their competition is actually untested.

    What did you think of Larry's reign. It surprised me a little just how poor it was in comparison to Ali, Louis and Johnson, although obviously the alpha organisations are the main cause of this. It will be intersting to see how Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield and Klitchsko appear. Pretty soon, i think i will but together a few tables of things like years spent in rankings, no of contenders beaten etc. This should give some emotionless all time rankings which i think would be interesting.

    And another record which i was thinking about. Based on these rankings, is Michael Spinks's win the greatest upset in boxing history? I cant remember a champion losing the title to someone who was unranked at the time of challenging. Ali, Braddock, Leon Spinks, Tunney etc were all ranked from what i remember. it is strange that this is never listed as one of the great upsets. An undefeated champion going for the record vs an unranked figher debuting in the division.