Any suggestions for a list fights where both fighters are in their prime and considered world/elite level, where there's no bringing a guy up in weight/weight bullying, no ones been out of the ring for a while (or considered inactive), short camps (cough Canelo) and any other dodgy conditions? Some I can think off the top of my head and of course there may be issues I've missed out : Foreman-Norton Wilder Fury 2 Foreman-Frazier 1 (some say Frazier legs/hip were done in by this point?) Pac Barrera 1 (was there any thing dodgy here? Size difference? Same for the below Pac fights??? ) Pac Marquez 1 Pac Morales 1 Pac Cotto Canelo Lara Ali Liston 1 (OK hard to tell whether Liston was prime but he did batter Patterson and he still looked quite good in Ali 1) Wilder Zeneloff 1 I guess this can be a way of determining the best "fair" prime for prime wins
These and in these fights a lot of ppl picked Liston and Frazier to win this one. Both, Ali and Foreman were underdogs.
RJJ vs Toney Julian Jackson vs Mike McCallum Gilberto Roman vs Santos Laciar Dwight Qawi vs Michael Spinks
Sorry but Liston Ali 1 should not be included in this list, So: I have Evander Holyfield vs Roddick Bowe 1, both fighters were in their prime and Big Daddy beat Real Deal because he was the better man. Mike Tyson vs Tony Tucker in 1987. (Tucker claimed he fought with an injured right hand, probably an excuse but who knows), Mike Tyson vs Michael Spinks should be up there too, Spinks actually was truly prepared physically (according to Eddie Futch) but not mentally Sonny Liston vs Zora Folley, David Tua vs Ike Ibeabuchi, Jerry Quary Vs Joe frazier 1, George Foreman vs Ron Lyle ex...
It's surprisingly hard. Fury Wilder 1? I would even quibble with Canelo Lara and Ali Liston 1. Canelo and Ali were both pre-prime
Why not? On paper Liston looked exactly in his prime: 3 very impressive wins in single row: 1 round vs Patterson I , Patterson II and some not well known boxer. He even was considered to win this one by fans and ppl.
You're right. Who knows how old Liston truly was anyway? It's impressive because he was probably up there in age.
Yes. I do not know how old was Liston. You are correct. Yeah, I had googled stuff that he before first fight vs Ali had been considered like 7-1 for some gamblers. He really looked very impressive in his last 3 fights in row and 2 from these fights were vs Patterson. 1 single round. No doubts why he had been considered as favorite to win Ali before 1 st fight vs Ali.
Okay but why not Ali-Liston 1? No way of knowing Liston actual age Holyfield Bowe was a good prime vs prime but wasn't Bowe lik 30lbs heavier... That weight will most likely make a difference Tucker vs Tyson I agree. Underrated Tyson win as well. Altho yeah Tucker did claim he fractured or broke his hand in rd 1 or 2 Let's be real Spinks was a light HW
Not only was he atleast 10 years older than ali, but he did not train for the fight, and with a badly injured left shoulder, he was defenitely not in condition to fight.
Good list, but just some personal opinions about some of those fights. Pac vs Barrera 1 I think in the Barrera vs Pac fight, I think Pac was in his physical prime, but not as good of a strategist as what he became at 147. I think Barrera was a good tactician at that point, but not the ferocious fighter he was when he fought Morales the first time and a bit slower after having faced Morales a second time already. Pac vs Cotto I think this was Pac at his absolute best. I think Cotto would have always lost, but I don't think he was as ferocious after the Margarito beating a few years prior. Canelo vs Lara This was as good as Lara was ever going to get. I think Canelo starting putting everything together about the time he fought GGG the second time onward.
Frazier clearly literally slowed down, was less motivated, & heavier than his best weight vs. Foreman. Liston's age almost certainly was a maximum of 33 when he fought Ali for the first time in early 1964. This has been discussed at great length in many threads, & there is no indication that what we see here on his heavily citation Wikipedia page is not the range of possible dates of birth. There is no official record of Liston's birth. His family's home state of Arkansas did not make birth certificates mandatory until 1965.[url][15][/url] His family, but not one Charles (or Sonny) Liston, can be found in the 1930 census, and in the 1940 census he was listed as 10 years old.[url][15][/url][url][16][/url] It has been suggested Liston himself may not have known what year he was born, as he was not precise on the matter. Liston believed his date of birth to be May 8, 1932 and used this for official purposes[url][16][/url] but by the time he won the world title an aged appearance added credence to rumors that he was actually several years older.[url][16][/url][url][17][/url][url][15][/url][url][18][/url][url][19][/url] One writer concluded that Liston's most plausible date of birth was July 22, 1930, citing census records and statements from his mother during her lifetime.[url][19][/url] I would like to see the evidence that he did not train at all for this fight! Or had a shoulder injury---> I think that his injury during the fight, + what happened training for the rematch, are being conflated. Which is, Liston was very well honed & motivated, but then Ali had to delay the fight due to an injury. Then he started hitting the bottle & slacking off. Still his fault for not remaining more professional. However, I do not think he was still prime in 1964.
Wilder Fury 2 - Wilder's ring walk costume sapped him of his prime lolz Foreman-Frazier 1 (some say Frazier legs/hip were done in by this point?) Frazier fell out of is prime pretty rapidly after beating Ali. The inactivity before he fought George, this was not the same Frazier who beat Ali or even early '72 Frazier. He was much heavier and slowed down considerably by the time he fought George. Pac Cotto - Did you forget that this was at a catchweight of 145 lbs? Pretty dodgy, Pac drained Cotto and Margarito's bricks the previous year had already taken Cotto out of his prime. Cotto looked much better in his next fight vs Yuri Foreman since it was at 154 because he didn't have to struggle to shed so much weight like he had to do vs Pac.
Freitas: vs whomever he lost to by quitting. Billy Irwin vs Juan Diaz: Irwin admitted he had no bad habits, was young in fight years, Diaz was simply the buzzsaw he was. Israel Vasquez vs Oscar Larios: chololo beat the prime Vasquez into submission in a foty type of fight. Before the trilogy with Rafael Marquez, before pac- Larios. Hopkins-taylor 1 and 2: Hopkins was the ageless wonder. Nobody did to him what Jermaine was able to do. He found the riddle of the rubix cube, and proved it was not a fluke in the rematch. Ruiz vs Jones: Jones last fight in his prime. Ruiz in prime form . Perhaps dodgy was the ref calling for no holding all fight maybe. Before their prime: Tua vs Ruiz. This is a funny fight because Lennox Lewis was Johnny's sparring partner. Later in his career he called out Lennox Lewis as he called him a little girl because he knew Lennox from sparring. This is also where Tua showed greatness before his image as a underachiever. Very interesting fight... Mosley cotto- both in their primes, could have gone either way, I wouldn't be mad. PAC Barrera one: I think PAC said he sparred some ridiculous amount of number of rounds so he would have energy to go up untill the last round. Morales PAC one: Morales last perfect fight. Manny was viewed as a killer at this time, before he went into god mode lol. Pbfm Corrales: enough said. Not on the list would be Cotto Marg 2. Damaged eye that's why. Holyfield Tyson, everybody knows about Tyson in jail beforehand.