Liston #1 heavyweight head to head?

196osh · Jul 5, 2009

Nice other option, .

Ali.

Abysmal Brute1981 · Oct 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Technical Skill/Experience

Ali himself conceded that Liston’s brutality was scientific. He was unusual in this regard. Joe Louis was arguably the supreme technician among the heavyweight champions, but Liston was at least as well-rounded as Larry Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, or Riddick Bowe. He was a murderous body puncher, knew his way around inside, was devastating mid-range, and could control most fighters from the outside. His jab was a telephone pole used not to dazzle, but to shock a man or knock him off balance so that Sonny could drive in with power shots.

Liston could punch in combination to the body and head. He could get a bit narcoleptic behind his jab and he tended to follow movers like Clay and Eddie Machen instead of cutting the ring off, but when he bent those knees and cornered his man, his explosiveness could make a grown man cry. And the attack was intelligent. What he lacked in speed he compensated for with leverage, good balance, and shots that were short, diverse, and well-placed. This didn’t change even as he aged. The punches he landed downstairs on Leotis Martin sounded like bowling balls dropping on wet salami.

Even at the end, Sonny threw combinations that are noticeably absent among the “punch-and-wait” style of modern giants. Left hooks were followed with right crosses, right crosses and uppercuts were followed by left hooks. Straight rights to the body were followed by left hooks to the head. He could adjust for distance and find angles. He did not disdain defense. His head moved after punching, he blocked, parried, weaved under shots and got into position to return fire. At times Sonny’s skillful slips and counters could make James Toney raise an eyebrow.

There are several heavyweight champions who have faced better competition than Liston. Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson are among them. Liston did gain valuable experience facing several different styles in his seventeen-year career –boxer-punchers, counter-punchers, swarmers, sluggers, southpaws, and super heavyweights.

Intangibles

“When I broke his jaw,” Marty Marshall recalled, “he didn’t even blink.” That was 1954, ten years before Liston met Clay. Cleveland Williams broke his nose in the first round of their first war in 1959. Blood poured like lava but the expression on Liston’s face looked like he was playing poker. In round three he turned the tables. In the rematch, Williams stunned him in round two only to see Liston shut him down seconds later. Liston virtually cleaned out the top ten contenders on his way to Floyd Patterson and avoided no one, even taking the short-end money just to fight them.

How many fighters today would be willing to accept high risk/low reward bouts? Prime Liston built his ring reputation on exactly that.

…..

In the end, it can be argued that Liston was almost a complete heavyweight. Most of the big boys have excelled with fewer assets than Liston had. Like any fighter, he also had a stylistic foil. He had trouble with tall unorthodox boxers with speed. Marshall demonstrated this in his victory over Liston, Machen disrupted Liston’s malevolent intentions by staying away and made him look one-dimensional and ponderous. Angelo Dundee took notes and was convinced early that Cassius Clay had a surplus of essentials necessary to thwart Liston. Clay was taller, had demon speed, mobility, and more power and physical strength than either Marshall or Machen. Clay also forced Liston to turn and constantly reset; and was smart enough to circle left, away from that big jab and left hook. In a peak-for-peak battle between 1959 Liston and 1967 Ali, Ali must be favored. He had the answers.

But there are no supermen. Ali himself was not immune to good strategy and stylistic kryptonite. Master strategist Eddie Futch shined a light on them. Frazier’s high pressure, bobbing and weaving style with that left hook emphasis would always have been problematic for Ali. Ali needed room, had real limitations inside and habitually dropped his right hand. Tyson, who was essentially a gamma-powered Frazier, would also have been problematic for Ali. Marciano knew how to find his way inside and do heavy damage, though there is a good chance that Ali’s corkscrew shots would make marinara out of his face. Bowe was trained by Eddie Futch and that alone could pose problems. If the contest discussed here included rematches, then Ali could be counted on to defeat anyone the second time if not the first. As it is, I’d argue that his record against his peers would place second.

Larry Holmes’s style of fighting most resembles Ali’s, but he had neither the speed of hand and foot nor the virtuosity that Ali had. Unfortunately, he was prone to punch wide and engage, and these would be mistakes against Liston. Holyfield had skills to match Liston, but he was prone to make the same mistake as Holmes –engaging a superior offensive force. The heavyweights, as a rule, seek victory less by finesse than by strength and power compared to other divisions. It is unlikely that any of the champions will beat 1959 Liston by the usual means. Those are his terms. Still more ominous is the high-tech engine beneath the artillery. Simply put, Liston may be too powerful for the skilled champions and too skilled for the powerful champions. To beat him, it takes a rare breed of heavyweight –the rarest, the Greatest.

Let us revisit the question: If all of the linear heavyweight champions of the modern era faced each other in their respective primes, who would be the king of the hill?"
Click to expand...

Simply marvelous posts. I take Sonny over any heavyweight who ever lived. And that includes Ali. Great stuff.

HOUDINI · Oct 19, 2019

Liston was as slow as molasses and twice as predictable.

zadfrak · Oct 19, 2019

He is not winning with that corner. They do not hold a candle to the great corners other elite heavies had.

KeedCubano · Oct 19, 2019

Top 5 for me, only loses to Holmes, Ali and Foreman at his best imo.

Tonto62 · Oct 19, 2019

HOUDINI said: ↑

Liston was as slow as molasses and twice as predictable.
Click to expand...

A prime Liston was not slow and even a cursory perusal of his early fights will prove the crassness of that remark!

KeedCubano · Oct 19, 2019

HOUDINI said: ↑

Liston was as slow as molasses and twice as predictable.
Click to expand...

He was, in 1969. Liston wasn't exactly Greased lightning but he wasn't exactly slow, he was about as quick as Marciano.

Was he predicted by anyone in his prime? Other than Ali, which is debatable Liston was prime anyways.

Tonto62 · Oct 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Technical Skill/Experience

Ali himself conceded that Liston’s brutality was scientific. He was unusual in this regard. Joe Louis was arguably the supreme technician among the heavyweight champions, but Liston was at least as well-rounded as Larry Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, or Riddick Bowe. He was a murderous body puncher, knew his way around inside, was devastating mid-range, and could control most fighters from the outside. His jab was a telephone pole used not to dazzle, but to shock a man or knock him off balance so that Sonny could drive in with power shots.

Liston could punch in combination to the body and head. He could get a bit narcoleptic behind his jab and he tended to follow movers like Clay and Eddie Machen instead of cutting the ring off, but when he bent those knees and cornered his man, his explosiveness could make a grown man cry. And the attack was intelligent. What he lacked in speed he compensated for with leverage, good balance, and shots that were short, diverse, and well-placed. This didn’t change even as he aged. The punches he landed downstairs on Leotis Martin sounded like bowling balls dropping on wet salami.

Even at the end, Sonny threw combinations that are noticeably absent among the “punch-and-wait” style of modern giants. Left hooks were followed with right crosses, right crosses and uppercuts were followed by left hooks. Straight rights to the body were followed by left hooks to the head. He could adjust for distance and find angles. He did not disdain defense. His head moved after punching, he blocked, parried, weaved under shots and got into position to return fire. At times Sonny’s skillful slips and counters could make James Toney raise an eyebrow.

There are several heavyweight champions who have faced better competition than Liston. Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson are among them. Liston did gain valuable experience facing several different styles in his seventeen-year career –boxer-punchers, counter-punchers, swarmers, sluggers, southpaws, and super heavyweights.

Intangibles

“When I broke his jaw,” Marty Marshall recalled, “he didn’t even blink.” That was 1954, ten years before Liston met Clay. Cleveland Williams broke his nose in the first round of their first war in 1959. Blood poured like lava but the expression on Liston’s face looked like he was playing poker. In round three he turned the tables. In the rematch, Williams stunned him in round two only to see Liston shut him down seconds later. Liston virtually cleaned out the top ten contenders on his way to Floyd Patterson and avoided no one, even taking the short-end money just to fight them.

How many fighters today would be willing to accept high risk/low reward bouts? Prime Liston built his ring reputation on exactly that.

…..

In the end, it can be argued that Liston was almost a complete heavyweight. Most of the big boys have excelled with fewer assets than Liston had. Like any fighter, he also had a stylistic foil. He had trouble with tall unorthodox boxers with speed. Marshall demonstrated this in his victory over Liston, Machen disrupted Liston’s malevolent intentions by staying away and made him look one-dimensional and ponderous. Angelo Dundee took notes and was convinced early that Cassius Clay had a surplus of essentials necessary to thwart Liston. Clay was taller, had demon speed, mobility, and more power and physical strength than either Marshall or Machen. Clay also forced Liston to turn and constantly reset; and was smart enough to circle left, away from that big jab and left hook. In a peak-for-peak battle between 1959 Liston and 1967 Ali, Ali must be favored. He had the answers.

But there are no supermen. Ali himself was not immune to good strategy and stylistic kryptonite. Master strategist Eddie Futch shined a light on them. Frazier’s high pressure, bobbing and weaving style with that left hook emphasis would always have been problematic for Ali. Ali needed room, had real limitations inside and habitually dropped his right hand. Tyson, who was essentially a gamma-powered Frazier, would also have been problematic for Ali. Marciano knew how to find his way inside and do heavy damage, though there is a good chance that Ali’s corkscrew shots would make marinara out of his face. Bowe was trained by Eddie Futch and that alone could pose problems. If the contest discussed here included rematches, then Ali could be counted on to defeat anyone the second time if not the first. As it is, I’d argue that his record against his peers would place second.

Larry Holmes’s style of fighting most resembles Ali’s, but he had neither the speed of hand and foot nor the virtuosity that Ali had. Unfortunately, he was prone to punch wide and engage, and these would be mistakes against Liston. Holyfield had skills to match Liston, but he was prone to make the same mistake as Holmes –engaging a superior offensive force. The heavyweights, as a rule, seek victory less by finesse than by strength and power compared to other divisions. It is unlikely that any of the champions will beat 1959 Liston by the usual means. Those are his terms. Still more ominous is the high-tech engine beneath the artillery. Simply put, Liston may be too powerful for the skilled champions and too skilled for the powerful champions. To beat him, it takes a rare breed of heavyweight –the rarest, the Greatest.

Let us revisit the question: If all of the linear heavyweight champions of the modern era faced each other in their respective primes, who would be the king of the hill?"
Click to expand...

Terrific post!

RulesMakeItInteresting · Oct 19, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

No doubt at all for me.

But i am VERY confident Liston stops Frazier and Foreman, just for starters.

I think Holmes and Lewis beat him, for seconds.
Click to expand...

Holmes would have had him quitting before the 8th round.

I see pre-Steward Lewis getting taken out reeeeal early by Liston. Steward-era Lewis knocks the crap out of and stops Liston in 9.

RulesMakeItInteresting · Oct 19, 2019

I don't agree Liston was as well-rounded as Holy and Holmes. Liston didn't have the generalship of even Holy (let alone Holmes). He didn't change his tactics much...both of the other fighters did that in the past (during the their primes such change ups were devastatingly effective).

Finally, both Holy and Holmes had more heart in their little fingers than Liston had in his whole, bear body.

McGrain · Oct 19, 2019

This post is ten years old and the link I provided is now dead.

I'm pretty sure this is lifted from an article written by someone else.

GOAT Primo Carnera · Oct 19, 2019

Abysmal Brute1981 said: ↑

Simply marvelous posts. I take Sonny over any heavyweight who ever lived. And that includes Ali. Great stuff.
Click to expand...

For what? Beating opponents 20 pounds lighter than him? Glassy Patterson twice? Not even giving a young Clay a good fight in two meetings, unable to put a glove on the badly blinking eye hurt Clay?

HOUDINI said: ↑

Liston was as slow as molasses and twice as predictable.
Click to expand...

He maybe wasn´t the quickest, but he wasn´t that slow for a man his size.

JohnThomas1 · Oct 19, 2019

RulesMakeItInteresting said: ↑

Holmes would have had him quitting before the 8th round.

I see pre-Steward Lewis getting taken out reeeeal early by Liston. Steward-era Lewis knocks the crap out of and stops Liston in 9.
Click to expand...

Over the years my stance has shifted somewhat. I now slightly favor him over Holmes and Lewis, hmmmmmm not sure. Tight one. I can't see the pre championship Liston, which is of course peak Liston quitting against anyone.

RulesMakeItInteresting · Oct 19, 2019

JohnThomas1 said: ↑

. I can't see the pre championship Liston, which is of course peak Liston quitting against anyone.
Click to expand...

He was a great fighter, no doubt. Creepy to watch during that time period imo. No wonder Foreman and Mike stole a few things from him.

JohnThomas1 · Oct 19, 2019

RulesMakeItInteresting said: ↑

He was a great fighter, no doubt. Creepy to watch during that time period imo. No wonder Foreman and Mike stole a few things from him.
Click to expand...

He was really something for sure.

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