Liston and Foreman if there was no Ali.

Not full, no.

 

If Frazier sticks around and gets Holmes on his way up,Holmes accent to the crown stalls.The Thrilla in Manilla Frazier whips Holmes.That's how I see it.

 

Ali might have salvaged both their legacies by alowing them to get beaten by a worthy opponent. Joe Louis might have performed the same service for Max Baer if he had got past Jimmy Braddock.

Liston after he won the rematch against Patterson lost all desire and focus. Once that happens to a champion he is a 42/1 upset waiting to happen. The night before he fought Ali, Liston was up late swilling back whisky. Liston was always going to loose the title but he might well have won it back.

Foreman seems to have been consistent in his training habits as champion so he could have gone on for a while. I sort of get the feeling that he was always going to get an oponent who was stylisticaly a bit wrong for him and get outpointed.

 

Good point, i was thinking about this earlier as well.