Liston and the dive, Rethought ..

People here mention it now and then. I don't think there was much of a real risk though. Not that the Nation of islam were a nice bunch, but murdering one of their own or even murdering one of their political enemies is a far cry from murdering an outsider. Liston, of course, may have been scared regardless, so it is possible that it affected his behavior even if there was no real risk.

But I think people overcomplicate things when they draw in the politics of the time. I think Liston was simply not feeling up for it, he suffered a bad loss in the first fight and didn't won't to do it again, the first solid punch he took he went down, and then did his theatrics rolling around on the floor. Maybe he saw some money or maybe he didn't, I'm not sure if he took a "dive", but what is clear is he didn't really want to fight that night. Sort of like Walcott against Marciano the second time.

 

Ali was also very subject to be hit by the N.O.I.
He and Malcolm X had been best friends before Malcolm denounced Elijah Muhammad.
The day Malcolm X was assassinated, Ali's apartment was torched.
I've read since then that Farrakhan didn't trust Ali and wanted to take him out, too. The old man said 'no'.
Whether they wanted Liston or Ali, Liston didn't want to be in the ring when the shotguns opened up.

 

Why turn up for the fight at all then ?
And why not just admit it after the event ?

If I took a dive because I had a real fear of assassination or terrorist attack I'd just come out and say it.
It's nothing to be ashamed of, especially if the whole world agrees that the threat was real.
Instead, sometime later, Liston said "Ali was running around, he's an unpredictable nut, so I didn't get up" ... surely that's a less honourable excuse than "Men were in the audience with guns waiting to shoot ... or if not I wasn't going to risk it", if the latter was true.

Supposedly Ali would have been the likely target, but Ali turned up for the fight.

Security was tight for that event.

 

The fight originally had been scheduled for Boston (Ali's hernia complicated matters)....and then the Mass. State Boxing Commission threw it out of the State because the fight at that stage "smelled" so bad.

Liston couldn't add well, but at least he could put 2 & 2 together.

 

Legend has it that during his time in prison Liston was a bit fearful of the Muslims {NOI} who wielded power inside. Who knows what he saw.

 

I am in what seems to be in the minority who doesn't believe that Liston went in with the intention of taking a dive. I think due a number of factors he was a broken man and was not as motivated and took the easier way out.

 

He took a dive, that's for sure just by looking at him acting in the floor like he did.

 

When Sonny won the title from Patterson he was hoping public perceptions of him might change, perhaps old predudices could be left in the past and a new beginning could be started, however it seems that feelings were perhaps a little too entrenched, One documentary reported Sonny as looking forward to getting back to St.Louis, and the Civic welcome at the Airport, Some fans, a few banners, ' Welcome Home Champ ' a few ballons, Some Back Slaps and a few cheering fans hoping for a Picture with the new champ, it wouldnt of taken much....But as Sonny got to the top of the plane steps....their was no one...nothing, It was said that Sonny's huge shoulders visibly sagged....the realization hit him that he was on his own, apart from his vested interest associates......Their was no new friends to be had... This Seed of thought would i think Germinate in the Ali Rematch,

After the first fight when Sonny found out that Clay was not The Skinny Kid that had S****ed past Doug Jones and had a close escape with Henry Cooper, But was filling out into a superbly atheltic young man, and one who phsycologically was not going to mentally be intimidated by this usual destroyer of opponents resolve before the first bell, This in turn was unfamilier terriotory to Sonny, and Undoubtedly unnerved him, However Sonny Flogged himself in the Gym for the rematch, and was reportedly in great shape, however Clay / Ali suffered that Hernia and the fight date was posponed, when the new date was resceduled Sonny could not reclaim that level of fitness he had earlier acheived

So the rematch Happens, and what does Clay/Ali do...Nothing for approx one minute...and what can Sonny do about it..Nothing..At that point i think Sonny got a severe dose of Deja Vue, knew when Clay/Ali decided to cut loose he was booked for a very painful and humiliating Evening, When the punch landed, it was no phantom, you can see Sonny's Neck absorb an impact, so no Problem with what should of been a Flash Knockdown, but then the combination of Factors arrived in Listons mind and thats when you see him on one knee in the act of rising he hesitates than flops back to the canvas

One/ Ali/Clay standing over him yelling at him to get up Told him that Clay/Ali was going to punish him severly
Two/ Sonny knew he did not have the Fitness or youth to compete with this quicksilver tormentor
Three/ And the Kicker, Sonny by this time knew he was unloved, and most wanted him to be gone and if the former Beast took a Beating..so much the better

So as Sonny Hesitated on his rise for a split secound before flopping over, I think he thought to himself 'Why should i take a severe beating for the entertainment and enjoyment of people who hate me... I want out and i want to lose those leeches who feed off me ' Sonny may of been a deeper thinker than given credit for.

 

TL;DR warning for anybody who likes brevity and texting clips to ignore this post and move on...


Liston's only two chances of beating him after 1963 came when he was blinded between rounds and wanted to quit during the first bout, and then if Sonny was fortunate enough to have him stricken by that hernia attack in the midst of their originally scheduled Boston rematch (a real possibility if Ali had entered the ring in Boston without yet suffering that medical emergency).

The fact is that no matter how hard Liston trained or how much he reduced his weight, he simply did not have the speed to compete in a legitimate contest with both in the best possible condition.

Ali buckled and nearly decked Sonny in Miami Beach with an almost identical right, so he'd already demonstrated the power to do what he did in Maine the following year. In Lewiston, he produced what Liston privately told his wife Gerry was a LEGITIMATE knockdown, nailing Sonny with that right just at an instant when the films show Liston's left foot was off the canvas for repositioning, so Sonny got caught standing on his right foot alone.

Gerry Liston was also told by her husband that he would have beaten the count if he had ever received one from the referee.

Jersey Joe Walcott alone is responsible for the controversial outcome, by abdicating his authority to ringsiders, specifically spectator Nat Fleischer and knockdown seconds timekeeper Francis McDonough. JJW had the discretion and obligation to disregard McDonough's count by not beginning a count until the neutral corner rule was honored by Ali, and/or until Sonny got back up. The momentary resumption of action after Liston returned to his feet was appropriate. Then, Walcott ended his career as a third man by failing to ignore Fleischer's screaming from ringside to stop it.

Would Sonny have survived another 45 seconds of round one if JJW had rightly ignored Fleischer and been the man in charge he was supposed to be? Based on what happened after Clay staggered Liston into a neutral corner during the third round in Miami Beach the year before, I believe the answer is yes. Ali attempted seven punches after Sonny was back on his feet while JJW was inappropriately consulting with Fleischer, and missed all of them.

Could Liston have lasted the Championship Distance, either in Boston as originally scheduled (presuming no medical emergency for Ali) or in Maine after getting through the opening round? No. Again, he wasn't able to touch an Ali unhampered by blindness or illness, an Ali who already proved in Miami Beach he had the power to hurt Sonny. Liston's best effort and condition wasn't going to be good enough after 1963 to last until the final bell ending round 15.

Yes, the Nation of Islam is central to Ali's life story, but not the outcome in Lewiston. JJW just wasn't the man in charge that Jack Sharkey was for Moore-Durelle I & II. He lost control of Ali's antics (where Sharkey physically stepped right in quickly between Moore and Durelle to enforce halts to action when they would have continued fighting after round ending bells), then deferred to a ringside spectator yelling to stop it who was in no official capacity.

Film and footage make it clear that Larry Merchant, José Torres, Jimmy Braddock and Jim Murray of the Los Angeles Times reported accurately on what they saw, although Tex Maule of Sports Illustrated was in error on reporting that Ali's right lifted Liston's left foot off the floor, as Sonny did that himself just as the punch was on the way.

Jimmy Cannon claimed to have seen it, and said it couldn't have squashed a gr@pe, but if he happened to blink at just the wrong instant, he could have missed it, and positions at ringside could have been critical as well to seeing it from a proper angle.

Braddock and Torres were world champions (Chegüi a reigning one), and conditioned from competition not to blink during critical action.

Right hand shot to the chin was indeed called for SportsVision by Steve Ellis (who would die at age 50 nine months later of diabetes and other health issues), and Ellis provided accurate as it happened live announcing of the action. Braddock was convinced that what Ellis called "Beautiful right hand shot that you saw...That was the best punch thus far, landed by the Champion," which Ali delivered at 1:07 was the setup for the knockdown. Braddock said about it, "It isn't the knockout punch that sticks in my mind as much as a punch he let go (earlier)....It was a right to Liston's jaw and it shook him to his shoetops. For all we know, it could have been the one that set up the knockout." This shot needs to be looked at carefully.

Ellis also noted that Sonny was aiming at the body, but not able to connect because Ali was too fast on his feet. Ali wasn't giving away body shots to Liston, but dancing out of range from them. Killing the body so the head will die only works if the body is an available target, and Ali's wasn't in Maine. Ellis said at :53 seconds, "Sonny Liston, in the dark trunks, is chasing that man straight away! Is that a mistake?," concluding that speculation at 1:00.

No dive and no fix. Both Walcott and Liston were concerned Ali might stomp him when Sonny was on the floor. McDonough's count ended at ten just as Liston got to his right knee and right glove before falling down again backwards. Chuvalo inadvertently noted, "His eyes were darting from side to side like this," he said, darting his eyes from side to side. "When a fighter is hurt his eyes roll up." However, Dr. Carroll L. Witten, former Kentucky State Boxing Commissioner, who had studied the reactions of knocked out fighters, said, "Chuvalo is wrong. The side-to-side movement of eyes is commonly associated with temporary unconsciousness and is one of the first things you look for. It is called nystagmus."

McDonough: "If that bum Clay had gone to a neutral corner instead of running around like a maniac, all the trouble would have been avoided." He acknowledged that Walcott could have asked him to start the count again "after he got that wild man—Clay—back to a neutral corner, but he didn't, so that was that."

Sure, it was a zoo with the antics of Ali and Fleischer, but guess what? If the third man in a boxing match isn't up to being the zookeeper in sports combat, he shouldn't be in there. Jack Sharkey wouldn't have blown it like that. Mills Lane also had to play zookeeper sometimes, most notably when Tyson turned cannibal in the Holyfield rematch as retaliation for Evander's head butts. JJW just wasn't up to the task, and NoI influence has never been suggested as having anything to do with referee failure in Lewiston.

 

It is my understanding that Sonny was battling the bottle at the time.

 

I am not convinced that Sonny Liston took a dive in his second bout with Muhammad Ali. After the knockdown, Liston got up and started to fight again before Referee Jersey Joe Walcott declared the fight to be over after being told that Liston had been counted out. I wonder what would have happened if the third man in the bout was a highly regarded referee with lots of recent bouts under his belt.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I agree. I don't think his heart was in it after the postponement. I think Ali did stun him. He went down and said to himself I don't want to continue. And stayed down when he could of gotten up in time. A dive of the heart.
I could be wrong their are a million theories all I believe is that Liston could of continued and chose not to. Who knows why.

 

Well, I'm not disagreeing with that but I still think Liston is more likely to admit sometime to someone that he was scared of assassins and terrorists, rather than saying he was decked by a light punch and scared of Ali because he's a "nut".

Personally I think Liston took a dive, probably because he had no love left for the fight game, no heart for a long fight, and possibly bet on himself to lose. Just my hunch.