Liston and the dive, Rethought ..

And that's the short version of my TL;DR post.

With a quality referee, I figure on a mid rounds stoppage win for Ali. Liston was giving chase, fighting Ali's fight, and swiping air while aiming almost exclusively to the body. Cleveland Williams at least had some hand speed. Sonny had no chance of beating somebody he couldn't hit at all, and Ali had crazy youthful energy for remaining evasive with his legs. For me, the question isn't who wins, but how long Liston lasts.

 

I think the knockdown was a flash knockdown, caught him off balance and not affected his senses. I think when Sonny was down he thought to himself many things, will this happen again, will I get humiliated by this lightening fast motor mouth, am I over the hill, shall I just pretend to be knocked out, what do I care everyone hates me anyway. I think at the count of 9 he thought, nope I'll give it another go. Unfortunately JJW got it all wrong and stopped it. Sonny was an old man when he won the title, probably over the hill even then. A 58 Liston would have been a different kettle of fish altogether, he was much faster then and hit just as hard. I have read the full autopsy of Sonny and he died of atherosclerosis , plain and simple, not drugs. What astonished me was at the time of his death his cardiovascular system was that of a much, much older man than 38. He still whooped Wepner 6 months before that.

 

Malcolm X was a very dangerous person, the polar opposite of Martin Luther King. He wanted 20% of the USA land for his group and openly used racism in his speeches. He also believed in some bunk that there was this giant wheel in the sky and in the future, black pilots would drop bombs on their enemies. Ali believed the same too. In the end, his own group assassinated him. Radical religious types.

The Young Clay was an angry man. He became smitten with this social movement of the times. The Black Muslim group at the times felt if they could win the Heavyweight Championship of the world, Ali would be the perfect person to deliver their message. The line "Ain't no Vietcong call me you know what " was fed to him.

On the night of the Liston fight, Malcolm X wisely left town. When Ali had a burning like substance in his eye, things got a little wild as the Black Muslims at the fight felt their man was fouled. But Angelo Dundee's quickly took a sample and from Ali's face and it burned his eye too and showed the Black Muslim group seated near ringside. Ali wanted to quit, but Dundee wouldn't let him and gave Ali instructions to run.

If Liston was supposed to take a dive, why did his corner allegedly put his anti-cut stuff on his gloves?

Ali's eyes became clear, then he took it too Liston. I think Liston just folded and quit. In the re-match, I do think Liston took a clear dive.

 

I completely agree with this.

 

You can't just come out and say it. There's a mysterious elite group pulling the strings, in boxing and in politics.

 

Ali became a puncher for one night only. Couldn't spark Cooper or Patterson but one shots Liston. Do you believe in The Mothership, too?

 

But people were talking about it then, and someone just wrote a book about it.
Maybe you're right.
I doubt Liston took a dive for that reason anyway. Security was tight.

 

Malcolm X left the Nation of Islam and was preaching a different line for about 18 months before he was assassinated.

Malcolm X was killed when he started opposing the strict separatist line and was working with left-wing radical political groups and talking about making the struggle one against poverty, and following mainstream Islam instead of Elijah Muhammad's "devils and spaceships" stories.
Martin Luther King Jr, incidentally, was killed when he started talking about ending poverty and working with left-wing groups outside of the civil rights and church movements.
The lines of X and King were converging.

As for the NOI wanting "20% of the USA" land, that's far less than the white man took from the natives and the mexicans.
And the NOI were only asking to be given it. When push came to shove they did things the good old American way and became property capitalists, bought and and built businesses with it. Leaders living in big houses and driving cadillacs, true Americans really.
In fact, in 2016 I'm pretty sure the NOI are still asking for it.

The NOI are conservatives and no real threat to America. That's how come the likes of Elijah and Farrakhan and Ali were never assassinated.
Guys like Malcolm and King were.

 

Malcolm X's assassination was a planned event. He was shot several times and died in a very public setting.

Dr. King's assassination was the result of a long gunman with one bullet striking him in the jaw that managed to sever his spinal cord. No press or crowds were at hand for King's assassination. Only one shot was fired, hardly the way to assure the job was done. I tend to think it was the work of crazy lone gunman.

History on these two can be deceiving or in some cases omitted. For Example, Dr. King was actually a Republican voter, and he never said he was marching for Black rights, with him it was for Civil rights.

 

Bert Whitehurst went the distance with Sonny twice in 1958, the second time coming after what some considered Liston's career best performance against Wayne Bethea at 204 pounds. Whitehurst II needs to be examined carefully, and frequently has been. If Sonny at 212-1/2 pounds couldn't stop the 190 pound 6 foot tall Bert for a second time (although he did come close in the final seconds), I see no way for 1958 Liston to compete with the hyper energized and blindingly fast 6'3" Ali in Lewiston.

Whitehurst and Machen show how quick movement and mobility always gave Sonny trouble. Cleveland Williams had the hand speed, but not the mobility or punch resistance. Ditto the highly skilled Patterson and Folley. This is a consistent career long pattern with Liston that proficient mobility with decent punch resistance was hard for him to catch up to. Marty Marshall and Johnny Summerlin demonstrated that in 1954, 1955 and 1956, Whitehurst 2X in 1958, Machen in 1960, Joiner and Leotis in 1969. (Joiner was the most vulnerable of this lot, and Billy would NOT have lasted like he did against the younger and faster Liston of Bethea.) Over a span of 15 years in professional competition, Sonny didn't evolve with experience to deal with this effectively.

I don't think Ali was the only one in the ring at Lewiston who would have beaten Liston at his best. At JJW's best, I think he would have driven Sonny up a wall with the same tactics Pastor twice used a decade before Louis-Walcott I & II to befuddle the Bomber. I do not believe age caught up to Liston so much as Ali's tactics, a consistent source of trouble for Sonny from much lighter and smaller opponents.

George Foreman's ring cutting proficiency is a different kettle of fish entirely. In Lewiston, GF would not have given chase, but continually taken that step to the right for heading Ali off, and Muhammad circled clockwise pretty consistently, not looking as comfortable moving right against Mildenberger the way Holmes did in Shavers I. (A key difference between Larry and Ali is that Holmes may have been the best orthodox HW at counterclockwise mobility.) I suspect George always might have forced Muhammad to eventually stop moving and win from long range with superior hand speed.

Because of Whitehurst II and Leotis, I don't rate him highly enough as a finisher to stop Ali legitimately. He had plenty of time in both round nine of Whitehurst II and round four of Leotis to get the job done and couldn't. (Whitehurst II is particularly troubling, because Sonny had Bert in serious trouble at the outset of round nine from a chopping right, and couldn't finish the job. In Liston's Saint Louis, it was Whitehurst's survival which garnered crowd cheers as the round drew to a close.)

 

As a juror, I would not vote guilty if Sonny Liston was being tried on the charge that he dived in his second bout with Muhammad Ali. The fact that he began to fight after getting up after the knockdown means that there was a reasonable doubt.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Right after the fight ended....Ali supposedly told his corner Liston had "Tanked it".

Then the "Anchor Punch" concept was invented and all the young people were introduced to the Steppin' Fetchit concept.

 

I vote not guilty as well.