Never thought about these 2 in a comparrison before, and saw it hinted @ in another thread. My initial thought was that Liston was miles ahead of Bowe....but having to much time on my hands, I began thinking that it might only be inches and that an argument might be able to made that Bowe was greater??? Who wins a fight H2H Who has the better resume & accomplishments? Which wins/loses do you base that upon? Who ranks higher and approximately where (I have had Liston in the 10-14 range and Bowe in the 18-22 area)???
I selected the first option, which is " Liston wins and is greater. " Bowe's defense was shaky, and Liston had incredible arm length, a well polished jab, good boxing ability and loads of snap behind his shots. Bowe might have the size and strength to out muscle him on the inside, but the problem is that he'd have to get there first before he could do anything. When I look at how Golata and an aged Tubbs were able to land flush shots without too much trouble, it just spells disaster in my mind.. Might be a good fight, but I have to take Sonny. I also think that Liston's resume is a tad better, but its a close margin.. He flattened an entire division prior to taking the crown..
On offence, the two are directly comparable. I would describe Bowe as being a little quicker, or perhaps more succinct, but this is offset by the Liston jab which is amongst the handful of best at the weight. I also suspect he would be the stronger of the two. On defence, it's not that close - Liston is clearly better in this department. I also think that Bowe is easier to draw and trick and that Liston is slightly better at that "higher level anyway". Intangibles would favour Liston too, if wasn't for that pair of big fat ****-ups against Ali - but i've no real interest in debating all of that again. Overall, I would expect Liston to beat Bowe more often than the other way round if they fought a series. Head to head best for best, I guess i'd pick him too, though this is clearly arguable. I rate Liston higher - i don't rank Bowe that highly on an ATG list.
Just out of curiosity, why do you rate Liston higher....are his wins that much more impressive? if so which ones?
I don't really consider Liston great. *Ducks tomatoes, chairs, and shoes thrown from Liston fans* He just lacks a good amount of quality wins and I take nothing away from Ali's wins over him despite both most likely being fixed. SL was still a very talented boxer and I hold him higher than Bowe. Just think he has the more varied approach to his style with being the much sharper puncher. That and Bowe being a very easy target just spells doom for him and I think Liston would knock em out late.
No, I wouldn't describe them as "much more impressive", but I would describe him as more impressive, as as professional boxer. In '91 and '92 though, Bowe was very, very good.
I have always rated Liston as more accomplished, but in looking at their resumes I am wondering if that is based more upon name recognition and noterity rather than the worth of actual accomplishments? Is Liston really that much greater (I think he wins H2H as well, Bowe more open on defense than would be wise against Sonny) in a sense of accomplishment?
Yes, I think he is greater taken as an overall package, certainly. Between '59 and '63 he seemed almost unbeatable, and it may even have been the case - I think it's arguable that Ali wouldn't have taken him even a year before. Bowe, to my eyes, had that same kind of medicine for about 18 months. There are certain shortcomings about each man's pre-prime though, that are similar I think. Certainly Bowe's drop off was dramatic, his prime was short. I like Liston's W resume better too, but I think it was in a chat with Magoo on here a few years back that it was observed that if you allow the Gollota wins - and Bowe did, after all, show fortitude and guts in not falling apart completely in those fights - Bowe takes a big bump. Most people don't allow them though.
Liston better H2H and greater, but not by much in either way. Bowe's entire reputation is based almost solely on the Holyfield wins, but their huge. I rate them a lot more than the admittedly great Patterson wins.
Liston is remembered as a great fighter even though he didn't look great vs. Ali. Bowe is remembered as a guy that could have been better than what he was... but he was still very good IMO. Bowe is one of only 3 Lineal HW Champs who were never stopped, Tunney and Marciano are the others. As for the World Titlist? Only Valuev, Ibragimov, and Toney (he was quickly stripped of his belt though) were not stopped. Bowe went 2-1 (1) vs. Holyfield and even the loss to Holyfield was close. For what it's worth he did better vs. holyfield than Lewis, and vs. a better Holyfield. He also did better vs. Holyfield than Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, and others did. 6'5" with an 82' reach and 235-240 Lbs. He was quicker than Liston and had better foot work. I'll take Bowe but it's not an easy win.
very surprised by the poll results so far. I pick bowe on both counts and didn't really have to think too hard about it.
I have not interacted w/ you a whole lot on here, but respect your opinion and how serious you seem to take boxing history....I don't think the gap between the 2 is as wide as the pools indicate, but am not convinced that Bowe is surpassing him... What about Bowe's resume stands out to you as superior to Listons...Not disagreeing just want to hear your input much like I did McGrains on the flip side.
Well firstly I had the bowe-holy rematch a draw and I actually think that from 92-96 he was the best HW on the planet. Id have go check my rankings to be certain of where I place them but I do think I had bowe slightly higher. H2H wise both would want the same thing, walk the other down with the jab and exchange hooks on the inside, bowe is, by my reckoning, superior up close and would land more than sonny. I also think he has a better engine,better heart and a better chin plus a significant size advantage. Id confidently pick bowe in a fight, in terms of greatness id have to check my notes to give a more detailed answer.