Liston Head-to-head:

Looking at your list above, I would only disagree with the following:

I see Liston Beating Lewis and Holyfield

But losing to Louis.

I think Foreman and Tunney would be 50/50.

 

Great idea

I feel strongly about Liston beating:

Foreman
Marciano
Patterson
Tunney
Lewis

I see him losing against:

Ali
Holmes
Louis

I had to narrow it down some because I couldn't envision some of the matches. I think I would slightly favor Frazier against Liston. I honestly believe Liston will not be able to keep Frazier from getting inside. How would Tyson-Liston pan out? Anybody want to venture an educated guess?

 

Sonny was too much of a physical specimen. I think he would just maul Tunney as in just seriously hurt him en route to a knockout or a clear decision win. I don't think Gene particularly had the versatility that Ali brought into the game that troubled Liston so. By this I mean that while he was a very sound boxer, he did not quite have the creativity and elusiveness of a young Ali. Some like to argue that Tunney was just as technically proficient as Ali. I'm not going to refute that. He was probably better than Ali in that area. Even if this were the case, he did not have the physical gifts that Muhammad possessed to effect a change in the outcome anyway.

Sorry friend, I don't quite get your meaning. Are you saying that you slightly favor Frazier too or what?

I give prime Tyson a little more credit than that, but what you said intrigues me. Please elaborate.

 

So we only disagree about the outcome of the Lewis fight, in other words. That's nice.

To be fair to Sonny Liston, I think if he should win against Lewis (which is still under debate obviously), it will be more about Sonny being an exceptional, all-time great heavyweight rather than simply Lennox being sloppy once again.

The more I imagine Tyson vs Liston, the more I think about disagreeing with you and McGrain. You know the only scenario I can think of that might bring about a Liston victory? It's if Mike just crumbles under the utter 'badassedness' of Sonny Liston; his idol across the ring from him.

 

Let's forget about this already. This is not the point I want to address.

This is the point I want to address I haven't read your post the whole way through yet, but that's exactly what I mean! Stylistically, if Tyson were 100% on-track, I don't see him losing to Liston. I think the external factors in the fight would play a major role.

 

I think anywhere from 7-13 on an All-Time list is fair for Liston (he's #9 on mine- all factors considered), though I'd actually rate him quite a bit higher as a threat in fantasy matchups.

Just out of curiosity,

What are your reasons for having him at #9? Is this based on how you feel he'd do head to head, or what his actual accomplishments were.

 

I agree with almost all points.
Some disagreements:

I would make Walcott a 50/50 fight. He's got a hard-to-catch style which will give the slower Liston problems. I don't think Walcott's chin is as bad as many think, either.
I'm not really sure about Tunney. He was a true masterful boxer, but not very proven at heavyweight. Could he deal with Liston's heavy hands? I would make this one 50/50 as well, because he certainly has the style. Durability (at HW) is a bit of a question mark to me.


I would favor Tyson & Holyfield against him. Tyson punches just as hard if not harder, has MUCH faster hands & feet, better defense, better head movement and is only an inch smaller but 10 pounds "wider". You may say Tyson is weak mentally, but he didn't quit on his stool after 6 rounds of light punishment anywhere near his prime. In fact, i'm not sure of Liston could take the one-sided, hard beatings he took against Douglas and particularly, Lewis.



About Holyfield, i can see why many see him losing. Had that tendency to slug it out, had some bad performances. But we're talking peak for peak here right? I think Holyfield had a better chin than Liston and the smart, stamina-filled, extremely skilled version that beat Tyson would beat Liston i think. Slight favorite.


I'd make the Foreman fight 50/50 as well. Liston is better technically, better balance, better defence, but this one would be a slugfest a la Liston-Williams I & II, and Williams (who is about Foreman's size) did not have all that much trouble landing on Liston.