Liston or Dempsey.. Which Do You Rate Higher?

Yeah, but literally no one has said that, though.

 

You think after 105 years, the film of this fight would be in the public domain by now. Dempsey Willard lasted longer than Micky Mouse who did not make 100 years lol.

 

"Ignorance".

 

Not so sure it's 'artificial' though. Seems pretty authentic to me.

Maybe the A is 'authentic' and we'll combine that with your suggestion. Happy with that?

 

Liston for both, P4P more arguable tho

 

Extremely

 

If we scaled down Liston by some pounds and a couple inches, he'd still be a killer.
If we make him 5'11 he'd still have those freakish arms and that monstrous power.

 

Liston by a good measure.

 

Liston channels his inner Fireman Flynn and she's all over in 24 seconds, Liston bettering Flynn's mark by 1 second. Harry Wills is spotted cheering madly at ringside.

 

Blimey, JT. You're setting the bar low for happiness, aren't you?

Need to get out more, do we, sir? Hope you're keeping well, cobber.

 

Sonny Liston. He fought better fighters, won in a better style and in a better era. Jack Dempsey was certainly more famous in the world

 

In their first bout, Liston missed around a dozen and a half head shots. Most of these went over Floyd, and most of these misses were jabs. He landed two or three jabs. Sonny's defense was good, so he never really tasted Patterson's power. Liston hammered his body frequently. Finally, he extended his right arm to brace Floyd's head in place against it to hammer it with his hook, and that brought on the end. Patterson went down for the count at 1:56.

During their rematch, Liston missed 11 of 12 jabs, and almost all of those misses went sailing over Patterson's head, but this time, Floyd was caught and first went down in a minute and a half. Between the first and second knockdowns, he hit Sonny with his only good head shot in both their bouts as Liston moved in for the kill, a hard right. In those 35 seconds after action resumed, Sonny missed around 15 head shots. (Liston did his damage with his less vaunted right in the rematch. Manager Jack Nilon said the left which caused him to French exit his title to Ali was already injured for Patterson II, and that can be detected in the footage.) Liston's jab was straight, long and hard against Floyd, but not very accurate. Foreman's jab was 50% % on target during his comeback. It's not that Sonny was wild with Patterson, Floyd caused him to have low accuracy despite fighting two stupid bouts. (He wised up for Chuvalo, then arguably should've been 15-0 between Ali I & II. After Liston II, Patterson also took Machen 11 rounds to 1 with 2 even.)

You can see how 178 pound Marty Marshall outmaneuvered Liston's jab and fractured Sonny's jaw in the Harold Johnson footage. In a rematch, Marshall decked him. Bert Whitehurst gave Liston headaches twice over the ten round limit while weighing 190 pounds. Billy Joiner went the limit with him, Leotis Martin nearly killed him while weighing 199 at 6ft 0-1/2 inches with a 76 inch reach.

At 6ft with a 75 inch reach weighing 196, a one armed Machen gave him hell with abrupt rushes in and manhandling Sonny in the clinches, spinning Liston around and fighting dirty. He hit Eddie low by trying to get under Machen's textbook high guard with elbows tucked for down. Machen genuinely had no fear, but we know that Eddie was mentally ill, so this isn't surprising. (He was confused and uncertain against southpaw Mildenberger in their draw, as was Ali, while composed veteran Folley knew how to deal with Karl.

If Machen had fought Sonny with the same right he used to deck big Nino Valdes with a body shot in 1956, he would've won. Between 1945 and 1959, only Machen knocked out Valdes. In their bout, Eddie nearly dropped Liston with a hook. While Sonny was definitely a harder puncher, Machen landed the hardest punches when they squared off, something to consider when contemplating Dempsey-Liston.

Ali was not hittable from 1964 to Folley in 1967 (Zora won two of the first three rounds by getting the GOAT off his toes and landing body shots with successive right leads to the head - Ali's lean was geared for slipping hooks and jab counters) except when he let Chuvalo hit his body and was blinded to body shots in Liston I, but he was not noted for his power in the 1960's. Liston's chin wasn't necessarily all that.

Dempsey took it from Firpo, and Willard had a hell of a chin. Jack was powerful enough to lift Big Jess off his feet with a short third round hook to the body.

Patterson took a knee from a bad back, but Ali couldn't finish Floyd that round where he unloaded 93 punches. Cleveland Williams never stopped fighting back and was on his feet when it was stopped. Henry Cooper had a glass jaw, yet Ali couldn't stagger him in two bouts.

From 1962 (a near death Lavorante) to 1967 (Folley) only four opponents went down for the count against Muhammad. The others were a fading Powell (who had been crushed in seconds by the deadly DeJohn, who Chuvalo said was his hardest punching career opponent), a badly overmatched London when Ali may have been at his fastest, and Liston in Lewiston.

25 seconds into their first bout at Miami Beach, he spins Liston's head and nearly decks Sonny with the right hand that opened Liston's cut under his left eye and drove him into a neutral corner.

Extreme slow motion shows Liston's head sharply whiplash back from the impact of the knockout punch in their rematch. Sonny told his wife Gerry that the knockdown was legitimate, but he could've beaten the count if Ali had gone directly to a neutral corner and stayed there. However, Chuvalo inadvertently confirmed the validity of the full count by describing Sonny's nystagmus. Ali had landed exactly two punches. Both were right crosses. Jimmy Braddock thought the first one hurt Liston badly, setting up Sonny for the finisher. All boxers present at Lewiston who had a clear view stated that Ali's last punch was legitimate and Steve Ellis called it correctly live. Also, at that instant (with Liston's left foot just off the canvas as he was repositioning), a flashbulb goes off, catching the punch. Now, photographers rarely saw hard punches being delivered. They followed the boxers feet to let them know when a hard punch was being attempted to left them know when a hard shot was being unloaded so they could catch the instant of impact. That's proof it was legit.

Ali stated in a filmed interview before Folley that he was not a hard puncher. Zora described him as having plenty of pop, and that they came from angles where he was out of view. In fact, he was to Folley's left for both knockdowns, the first from a cross-double hook, combination, the ender from a double right. This, as is often the case, cme from unseen shots, and Muhammad himself told Dunphy in the ring afterwards that he'd need to see the rerun for a description.


Dempsey was extremely mobile with far more power than Patterson, Ingo, Machen, Marshall or Leotis. He was much faster and more accurate than Liston at his best. Floyd proved that getting low made Sonny's long and hard but slow heavy lab jab sail over and past.

Is it a top five HW jab? Ali, Holmes, Norton, second career Foreman, Louis, Holmes idol Jack Johnson, fencing master Corbett, Tunney and arguably Pinklon could rate higher among HW Title claimants. I don't consider Liston's jab to be top five due to lack of speed and accuracy, but I can buy top ten. Moorer's southpaw jab cause Angelo Dundee to ask Foreman if he was all right.

I accept Loughran as a HW due to his deep post LHW resume. I think Sonny was too slow to catch him, and Liston's certainly not winning a jabbing contest against that level of skill and smarts.

 

In terms of legacy, it's Sullivan, Jack Johnson, Dempsey, Louis and Ali at the top.

 

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I acknowledge the results of this vote because I believe that of the 24 forum members who voted, AT LEAST 20 are better boxing experts than I am.
But here Liston (number 11) and Dempsey (number 12) are so close that IMHO it's ultimately a matter of taste.

 

This is a fix which could go either way...