Liston or Dempsey.. Which Do You Rate Higher?

I'm an easily pleased sort of bloke Eddie!

Quite happy mostly staying home at this age old mate. Keeping quite well, you too mate.

 

So would Shavers. Earnie had an underrated chin. (Six KDs over the first 90 bouts covering 26 years.) He absorbed massive shots from Lyle for five rounds, but necessarily punched himself out at altitude in six. (Going for a knockout was his only hope of winning in Denver.) It took around 60 shots for Jerry Quarry to land him after hurting him, and JQ had one punch knockout power in both hands. (Shavers fired back eight of his own, including a few jabs which snapped Jerry's head back to no effect. Lyle and Henry Clark made it clear how hard Earnie's jabs were.) Earnie also stood up to the deadly Mercado for six rounds until fatigue caught up to him, largely because of his effort to follow up a third round knockdown of Bernardo.

A long right from a retreating Jeff Sims in the opening round was the only single punch to ever drop Shavers. Earnie got up to survive the round, and stopped the lethal Sims in five on the Berbick-Ali undercard for the definitive comeback win of that front runner's career.

By contrast, I believe Sonny's chin to be overrated. He did get decked by 178 pound Marshall, Staggered by the then light hitting Clay in Miami Beach,. was legitimately knocked out by Ali in their rematch, and destroyed by 199 pound Leotis. That's four times in 54 bouts over exactly 17 years covering 265 rounds (Shavers had a career total of 317 rounds).

Liston's chin reputation really boils down to two short battles with a pre shooting Big Cat, and perhaps DeJohn. For for all his legendary power, Cleveland's knockout resume is not extraordinary. Of course Patterson hit him exactly once with a solid shot. Floyd tried blasting him but again, Sonny's defense was very good and well prepared. He ducked with caution at all times and skipped away and back quickly. I think his aggressive defense against Patterson 2X was significant reason why he was favored so heavily over Clay in Miami Beach (along with the way Cooper had just knocked him silly and Doug Jones raised hell the previous year.)

 

I'm quite keen to see this spinning of Liston's head, him nearly going down and getting driven to a neutral corner at the 25 second mark of the first round of the first bout.

The bout starts at 9.36 1/2 seconds so it should be within a couple of seconds of the 10 minute mark.

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Noted Liston hater chok used to play this card. I could be wrong but i believe @mcvey and co well and truly debunked this Sports Illustrated claim.

 

Correct, Marshall didn't knock down Liston at all. No KD was recorded, and nobody aside from Marshall himself recall a knockdown.

 

All right. JT, please mute it, reduce the speed setting to 0.25 (I love this feature), then forward it to 17:51 or close to it.. He nails an excellent right at 7:55, and his follow-up hook appears as though it may have turned Sonny's head. (Angelo Dundee really worked with Muhmmad to develop that hook, shortening it up, increasing its power by having Cassius keep his elbow closer to his body. The closer the elbows are, the greater the power. Jimmy Jacobs narrates note of Marciano's hook being awkwardly undeveloped for Rex Layne, but a year later, Rocky surprised and impressed Louis by dropping the Bomber with it.)

He skips way back to separate at 17:56 and reset, then moves in with a double jab at 17:58 to recommence the punching. The shot which follows begins the chaos.

Now, a driving right at 17:59 is NOT yet that head spinner I'm referring to, but it IS the knee buckler. Sonny's back is to the camera, so you only see his dipping reaction to it. It comes from a jab-jab-CROSS. (I desperately wish we had a good angle of the knee buckler. If Liston had his left hand low, he might've touched down. Also, we can't see how low and close to the deck Sonny's right knee got.

The first of two follow up hooks come just as the timer turns to 18:00. Now continue on at 0.25 speed. As the timer turns 18:01, he knocks Liston's head up and back with a hook, the the follow-up right is the chin spinner. After he bends over on Sonny with both his gloves resting atop the back of Liston's head at 18:02, two more hooks complete the retreat of Sonny bouncing against the ropes by that neutral corner at 18:03. Young Clay then unloads a one-two with the right seemingly loaded up as a kill shot at 18:04, but Liston ducks it, bounces back against the ropes, then wards Cassius, Jr. back and away with his double jab to end the sequence. (Sonny should've used his jab more as a defensive deterrent to try keep the young speedster at bay.)

JT, I hope this is precise enough to follow with accuracy. At live speed, it's too fast for many to discern, although I did use live speed to pinpoint the buckling and follow up for reviewing in repeated slow-mo.

Reviewing the entire bout at live speed, I'm very impressed with the stiffness and loud pop when Cassuis unloads his jab. This is no flicking and subtle backhanding double jab snake licker. Over the course of his career, he varied his jab, but this thing split high guards.

I've never heard the British narration BTW. Interesting contrast the the Steve Ellis/Joe Louis call for TNT, and I always enjoy listening to Harry Carpenter or Reg Gutteridge. (Harry Carpenter's British oriented 1975 coffee table book, "Boxing: A Pictorial History," was crucial to my origins as a boxing fan. The internet's been amazing for allowing me to view and study historic British and European competitors Carpenter wrote about. Newly re-crowned Champion Ali wrote the forward, humorously chiding Carpenter for not paying him to do it. "Money, honey!"

Yeah JT, I'm well aware of that, but looking at the Harold Johnson - Marshall kinescope, it seems plausible that Marty could've had the combination of mobility and power necessary to catch Liston out of position for a flash KD. We can most definitely see why Marshall had fractured Sonny's open mouth of disbelief at that time. But Harold was always cool and composed, as if he'd truly seen it all. I've never read a newspaper report of Marshall-Liston II or III. That would help clarify things.

 

Same here. I just had three nights out on the trot watching the footie and I feel terminally ill.

 

That has to be the very definition of "fleeting". Jesus, what a reach.

 

Ok so the occurrence was actually nowhere near where first stated.

I think it's being overstated personally. Liston was already ducking down low (which he had been previously as well) to avoid the right hand and actually got connected around the ear. It looks worse as his back foot stutters a bit as he recovers. He was likely buzzed but recovers well while Ali unloads blinding punches. Liston looks to be in some trouble but stays aware and ducks a big right hand extremely well. Liston's then on the charge with a double jab and chases Ali across the ring. Ali again catches Liston with a hard right hand but he recovers instantly to duck the follow up. So i'd say Liston was buzzed a couple of times but shook it off very well against a guy that was a great finisher. I don't think Liston almost touched down.

His jab was the best of them all for mine TBH. His jab in the 60's was hard and blindingly fast as well as brilliantly utilized. The big thing as well is that it was almost impossible to counter in the 60's.

Yeah it's great to get different sets of commentary to big fights, absolutely.

I think the problem is you want it to be true. If you were well aware of it being debunked it's a big surprise you're still claiming it, and in various posts to boot.

Trying to manufacture a imaginary scenario where Marshall drops Sonny because of personal interpretation of a totally different fight is fanciful to put it mildly.

The vast majority had numerous plausible fantasy scenes running thru their head of Tyson ko'ing Holyfield due to his shoddy recent form. They had plausible thoughts of Larry Holmes, the massive favorite dominating and ko'ing Michael Spinks going into fight one. There's a million plus different examples that ended up pure fantasy.

Detractors always zero in on Marty Marshall but it's invariably shown to be disingenuous thinking each time out.

Liston only had a 1 year amateur career and Marshall was just his 8th pro fight. It was also won on a split decision. There's also a backstory which i will post separate.

Fight 2, with Liston now having one extra bout under his belt saw Liston win with the utmost of ease having Marshall up and down like a yoyo before he was saved from further hammering despite seemingly erroneous claims of a KD the other way.

Fight 3 Liston won in a canter, actually carrying Marshall and from memory there were warnings to fight harder. Marshall didn't win a round. Liston had 14 fights under his belt going into this.

You've called Clay "light hitting" at the time of the Miami fight and i find this to be grossly overstated. He was certainly no bomber but his hands were 100% and he was hitting hard as well as hitting Liston with punches he had trouble seeing despite his excellent defense and anticipation. He didn't suddenly become noticeably harder hitting between bouts that's for sure. There's quite a bit written of how hard he hit Liston in the rematch but i won't dredge it up. There was also reports that Liston had a terrible late prep and they paid at least one sparring partner to take it easy on him so he looked better. There was talk he was washed up.

 

@Anubis

Here's a little background story by Mike Casey about the first Marshall bout -

http://archive.boxing.media/early_train_to_broken_jaw.html

The omens were not good when a young Sonny Liston caught the train from St Louis to Detroit in the fall of 1954. What was to follow was a bittersweet saga of hilarity and poignancy, one of those teasing stories that people love to relate in the years that follow when they are pulling the Devil’s tail from a safe distance.

Big and tough, a good boxer with a great jab and genuine punching power, Liston was making steady progress as an unbeaten professional as he headed for his eighth fight against the erratic but dangerous local boy, Marty Marshall on September 7th. It wasn’t a big fight and it didn’t have the smell of future significance.

Liston was coming along nicely, but he had yet to blossom into the almost mythical mankiller who would scare the life out of opponents and worry even President Kennedy. Sonny had won five of his first seven fights by decision and wasn’t setting off any alarm bells. All that most people wanted to know was whether the second match between Rocky Marciano and Ezzard Charles in ten days time would be as thrilling as the first.

Up to then, Liston had felt safe and assured in the ring because he had felt safe and assured outside it. Now the people he trusted weren’t with him. Manager Frank Mitchell told Sonny to catch an early train to Detroit on his own. Mitchell and Liston’s other handlers would follow on the next day.

By the time of the weigh-in, Mitchell and his colleagues were still absent. Alone in his dressing room, Liston taped his own hands. Nothing felt right and nor did Sonny. There was no hustle-bustle, no comforting voices, no slaps on the back and words of encouragement.

Liston later explained: “If you’re cold inside, you can’t get started. A fighter’s got to think one thing before a fight – getting as evil as he can. I had too many things on my mind. I was mad at my manager instead of Marty Marshall, the guy I was gonna fight. Besides, you need somebody to tell you what to do and what to look for. Monroe Harrison, my trainer, always used to yell, ‘Watch out, he might be carrying a gun!’ But Monroe wasn’t there either.”

When you are feeling disoriented and out of time, the last thing you need to meet is a madman. Marty Marshall had a funky ring act and he was dangerous with it. He liked to jump up in the air occasionally. He liked to whoop and holler. Then he like to hit you hard.

Sonny had never met the like of him and just couldn’t get into “killer” mode. “He was hollerin’ and going on and I knocked him down,” Liston recalled. “He got up and I was laughing. He caught me with my mouth open and broke my jaw – least I thought it was broke. If you can’t close your mouth, you know something’s wrong.

“That was in the fourth round. In the sixth he pops me again and the jaw busts again in a different place. It felt funny fighting with my mouth open, but it didn’t bother me none until later on after the fight.”

Liston lost a split decision, but the real pain was still to come. “I walked the streets all night, it hurt so bad. I finally went to the hotel doctor and he gave me some pills and charged me $20. Back in St Louis, I got my mouth wired up. I know I’m going to be out of action for six months. I had to eat with a straw for five weeks. But when I ask the manager for the $20 for the pills, he says, ‘Oh no, that comes off your end.’ Then I got mad.”

It was a lesson learned and Liston the man emerged from it. No more Mr. Nice Guy. No more managers and handlers who couldn’t do their jobs properly. No more tolerance of clowns who came into the ring for a laugh. Seven months later, Sonny knocked down Marshall four times and stopped him in six rounds.

Ever economical with his words, Liston summed up the new deal with quiet menace: “I was like a baby learning to walk. You got to have somebody hold you up at first. Now I don’t need anybody but the referee – to pull me off somebody.”

 

I could well imagine!!! Golf gets me out and about and moving and i walk the dog heaps. Ten to twenty thousand steps a day i've been getting done and it feels good. Even had half a dozen drinks last night lol

 

Liston beat Whitehurst easily in both fights.

Here's poor old Bert trying to climb back into the ring after Liston poleaxes him in the final seconds of the rematch. It's a knockout except the final bell saved him.

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Machen surrender round after round. If he fought more aggressively it would play right into Liston's heavy mitts. Machen was one weird cat.

 

Dempsey ducked his number 1 contender for 7 years!!! A hall of famer in his prime. Better than anyone Dempsey beat.

liston cleaned out the late 50s-early 60s heavyweight division. He defeated them all (save 1 petrified European) some of them very dangerous fighters. Liston dismantled them with ease. He also knocked out a hall of fame champion twice in one round.

Liston all day!!!

 

Interesting..you bring up Liston losing a split decision to a top 10 ranked contender in just his 7th pro fight (twice avenged brutally) but crickets when it comes to Dempsey being flattened in one round by a 37 year old Fireman Flynn in his 31st pro fight.

I don’t care to respond to the rest of your drivel.

 

A fight between them would be entertaining.