Liston or Shavers? - Hardest Hitting Heavyweight.

Agree. Liston’s jab was a power punch in and of itself.

 

Liston

 

Ali's words are meaningless since Shavers managed to land some hard shots while Liston didn't.

 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8880Ev729AM

 

Very well put and this is what I have been pointing out myself for a very long time. Other big hitters rarely put everything into their punches the way Shavers did, that's why he appeared to be a harder hitter.
IMO if all the big hitters in history where to put everything they had into a single punch, I am willing to bet Shavers ain't even in the top 10.

 

I think Shavers hit harder.
Liston was much the better finisher though.

 

This is telling. Foreman makes the unusual comparison of Shaver's punch to that of a WW.
Indicating the snap & speed of a punch, including how well executed it was.
Like Frazier with the best & most proper left hook despite not having a wide arsenal of good punches, Shavers was not well-rounded for a World Class fighter, including in putting his punches together well, accuracy or finishing...

But his bio-mechanics for creating excruciating power was off the charts.
Both form, commitment to a punch, animating emotion, fast twitch muscle fibers...
He combined this with long levers & huge hands.

The one thing he could "do" better was be larger overall.
However there is diminishing returns-often none-above his size.

I do not buy thre argument that others hit harder or had that capacity because they "wound up" or maxed out effort less.
First off, we are talking about how hard these men actually hit.
Not extrapolating how hard they

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been able to do so, assuming they held back.

Lastly, I do not believe any HW slugger never

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his hardest punches.
Liston may have done it less often, but who could imagine that when in a huge struggle & trying to finish someone he never hit about as hard as he could?
Like with Cleveland Williams.

Ironically Liston likely put about as much as anyone-& more than most do-of maximum potential force into his jabs.
And that potential was huge.

I wonder if guys around their size could have hit the hardest ever.
It *might* be possible.
In baseball the bigger guys may or may not hit the ball the furthest, or throw the hardest.
Some guys can be long & tall & be at the top-but the very biggest-let alone with near the most muscle mass possible-may well not be able to generate the same bat or arm speed or coordinate at well.

Usually just being fairly large compared to an average man is enough to be a near GOAT candidate in these realms-with the right freakish genetics.
Sometimes just medium sized, like Billy Wagner who threw harder more often than anyone then, & his foot taller teammate & much greater pitcher Randy Johnson...

Or the man below, 5'10" -5'11" & 170-180 lbs. max,

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being at all jacked or ripped...
May be deeply instructive about what a very select cohort of genetic outliers can accomplish.

A low intelligence alcoholic, literally lost for decades to alcoholism & its dementia, who died in the pandemic.
There is tremendous evidence from numerous sources-many who played or managed in the Big Leagues-that although he hurt his arm just as he obtained enough control to make the majors in the 1960's, he very likely had whatever it took-forearm snap, arm speed, fast twitch muscle fibers, flexibility/shoulder rotation-to be the Pitch speed GOAT...

Steve Dalkowski.

And overall a kinetic chain of delivery of such energetic efficiency that he threw the fastest ever.

 

I love Liston's jab! An entity in its own right as you alluded to. It was one hell of an asset for Liston.

Sure, you can have that opinion which is cool.

Just to clarify myself, I'm not arguing against Shavers being an elite puncher. I think he definitely was, even with the qualification that he did throw each and every punch with fight ending intentions - as Earnie himself attested to.

Did he throw the single hardest punches at different times as compared to some other fighters? I'm not so sure.

 

Ali said -Shavers hit him so hard it shook his kinfolk back in Africa-
Quick Tillis said - Shavers punch sent him to the land of make believe, heard saxophones, trombones and saw little blue rats smoking cigars and drinking whiskey-
Tex Cobb said -Shavers can punch you in the neck and break your ankle-
According to these 3 gentlemen Shavers hit harder.

 

Only man to KO Williams who was a pretty big durable guy at the time.

Stopped the very durable and cagey Young as well as Bugner, although these weren't clean knockouts. Still pretty impressive as both guys had solid chins and were cautious. Cautious fighters are a pain in the ass to KO since they don't like getting hit.

He has repeated on 3 separate occasions Lyle hit him harder than anyone else including his 90's career.

Shavers broke his hand punching Stander in the forehead.

 

Re Shavers breaking hand. Not surprised. Stander had a head like a concrete block and, as Stander claimed and as described, Earnie hit him with everything he had.

Ah, Foreman. He has said a lot of things that butt up against themselves.

Its always subjective interpretation but I believe his oft repeated testimony as to Lyle being the hardest puncher he faced is the most genuine.

Old George also said Shavers was the hardest puncher - and George didn’t even fight Earnie. Foreman definitely deferring to Earnie’s bestowed title as hardest puncher ever.

I think Earnie’s skills are often underrated to enhance the perception of his raw power.

Catching up to KO/Stop elusive and durable Young was no mean feat and Earnie also dropped Young hard in the rematch which was a draw but most believed Young had won.

Bugner was actually doing well vs Shavers prior to the stoppage. Earnie blatantly executed multiple fouls when he put Joe down.

He held behind the head with the right and low blowed with the left then immediately switched hands, holding with the left and uppercutting with the right.

Of course Bugner was stopped due to a cut eye - if not for same I suspect Bugner would’ve survived and eventually prevailed over a tiring Shavers.

 

Quick Tillis was quite the wordsmith, wasn’t he?

Interviewed straight after the fight with Shavers, James was cognisant enough to remember and relate the fact of Ali previously telling him (James) that Earnie was the hardest puncher that he (Ali) had ever faced.

Maybe Tillis watched too many Looney Tunes Cartoons or the cartoon makers were all punched by Shavers at one time or another:-

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It's just funny when people say boxers are being dishonest when rating those who hit them, then they ignore possibly the most honest response of all time from Foreman (which is ironic because many people give him the side eye for some of his comments and rightfully so).

No one else had him in trouble like Lyle, not even close. The other times he was down were primarily due to exhaustion and heat. Of course, people will ignore this if it goes against their agenda that more recent fighters must automatically be better. Or they claim Foreman's chin vastly improved after being inactive for 10 years when the simple eye test will show you his defense and pacing is what vastly improved.

But you can't tell these people anything.

With the straight right cross sure. I doubt Shavers left was as good as Foreman, or his right uppercut. Shavers would be the grenade launcher, wild, hard to aim, and with limited ammunition. Foreman would be the heavy machine gun. Not much finesse or creativity behind the weapon, but dammit it works.

As far as his skills in terms of setting up bombs and following through, Shavers is one of the greatest. He had superb understanding of punching mechanics, leverage, body weight shifting, etc.

Yeah, Shavers did kind of get away with a lot in that fight, but it was still pretty impressive stopping a durable cautious guy like Bugner. Bugner even complimented Shavers and didn't hesitate to name him as the hardest hitter he faced.

 

You’ve probably seen this but Foreman’s relating of how it felt to be hit by Lyle comes across as genuinely introspective and perfectly illustrated by George. Thank god he didn’t mention saxophones, rats, three little pigs etc. otherwise he would’ve lost me - LOL.

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There was a very talented fighter I used to train with. He had that kind of power. I remember one time he lulled me into a false sense of security and then boom, I just saw a white flash of light and felt myself losing my balance. It literally didn't hurt, but the marks on my face proved I had obviously been hit pretty hard.

Scientists need to look into this. Perhaps there's a certain threshold of force/pain that is so high the human mind can't even register or process it properly.