Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Its less to do with running Liston down, more about disagreeing with established opinion. I can honestly say I enjoy watching Liston fights. we all get irritated with nuthugging but at the end of the day Liston was an exciting great fighter. There is no getting away from that. It is more the overly simplistic notion that swarmer v swarmer = big swarmer wins that gets my goat. It is my firm view that great fighters are hard to beat.

 

That is an overly simplistic view.

Styles make fights. The right gameplan an the right set of attributes can lead to a great fighter looking average.

Many greats have lost in fights were they were outclassed by a greater foe or even a lesser foe.

 

yes, this is also what I am saying. styles, desire, gameplans and focus make fights. Also career timing make fights.

Liston beating marciano just because foreman beat Frazier is crazy - I dont know if you personaly believe this but many say it even though it is entirely simplistic ..As we know Frazier was not marciano anymore than Liston was not foreman. In fact jamaca Frazier was not even TFOTC Frazier - but that is besides the point.

 

I'd pick liston to beat rocky purely because I think rocky will get hit far too much, and is far too small to take the kind of punishment liston will dish out if rocky ever manages to get beyond his jab and make the fight competitive.

Now I don't have a clue what you're on about with the foreman - frazier equals liston - rocky comparison. No idea at all.

But i'd also pick foreman to beat frazier because he twice wiped the floor with him. Not sure how you get from that to liston - rocky though? What are you talking about?

 

a prime rocky would always be competitive against any great fighter just as Harry greb was because marcinao was a great fighter who won competitive fights. Liston would find it harder to find the room to land his jab on rocky than he did on upright taller fighters who stood off him. would you say Marciano wasnt as durable as willie besmanoff?

I was using it as a simplistic example of how many people think marciano v Liston would pan out. You must have also heard that is a common belief that because foreman beat Frazier so easily then Liston would do the same to marciano?

Frazier and marcinao were two different types of fighters.

Frazier was a rhythm fighter, an energiser bunny with a pin point left hook he could double up and land at any range. He weaved his head as much to transfer his weight from one foot to the other to launch a shot as opposed to avoiding a punch. If his head went down it was coming back up even if your punch was on its way.

Marciano countered his way in. where as Frazier led.

Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Frazier met you with a punch, it was already coming.

With Frazier what you saw was what you got. Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming. Both could fight all day but only rocky made his openings. Frazier had one gear flat out, straight at you.

i think prime frazier is harder to beat than Foreman found him. The odds were based on frazier (because he was still unbeaten) being prime but he was not. The majority felt prime frazier would beat a young green george. nobody picked foreman going into their first fight. It turned out to be a calculated gamble that paid off for team Foreman because the green Foreman could walk into frazier without getting hit on the way in as he would have been had Frazier been at his best. career timing at its best.

 

you're talking bollox for the most part here.

who cares about what a general simplification is? a debate is between two individuals. You seem to live in this fantasy world where this a "team liston" all spouting the same bollox and you turn up on your steed of impeccable logic showing why this is not the case.

I never said ali's victory over liston was not great, I never said foreman beating frazier means liston beats marciano, I never said marciano was less durable than fukin besamnoff.

You chat utter shite.

Thinking rocky would always be competitive is quite naive as well. Greb wasn't always in competitive fights. Infact greb highlights a good example because the first tunney fighting was, by all accounts, an absolute pasting. So bad that tunney nearly retired. So Tunney, despite being great, lost in one sided fashion.

I have no trouble imagining rocky having the **** kicked out of him by a peak lennox lewis who outweighs something rotten and has an edge in the skill department as well.

Styles make fights. Being great does not negate this basic boxing truth.

Especially in the HW division where one punch can end things in an instant. Or any division for that matter. Take Kalambay against nunn, two very technically sound boxers both in their prime at the top of the division facing off. It wasn't a competitive fight.

Rocky Marciano, and here is the sad truth, would be classed as a big light heavyweight today. Or a small cruiser weight. Any small cruiserweight going up against even today's champion, wladimir, is getting pasted. Does it stop them being great? no it doesn't.

You say Liston winning fights in one sided fashion as if it is a negative, are you really stupid enough to think that had he been a bit worse than he was, hence making his fights less one sided, would somehow make him better?

 

No he was not a swarmer. He used jabs aggresivly, there was a lot of craft within Liston but he was all about beating down the other fellow. I should have used the word "powerhouse". powerhouse v powerhouse sounds a bit gay though..

 

It would tick a few more boxes for me had Listons fights been a bit harder. some one said on here one time that being a knockout artist can have its pitfalls in that a seasoning process can be bypassed. I think liston was harmed somewhat by lack of competitive rounds from machen to ali. a fighter can go soft having too easy a time.

 

And I never said you did. I was asking if you were aware there appears to be lazy, almost established opinions on those subjects.

 

Rocky marciano was a heavyweight when Liston turned pro. In this debate rocky was a real heavyweight. If you want to talk about today, well that is another matter. I have a theory that there is no such thing as a natural cruiserweight because it is an imbetween weight class betwen classic 200lb 15 round heavyweights and lightheavyweight a division of tall middleweights. superheavyweights have always existed -and Liston was not one of them. today there are classic heavyweights taking up bodybuilding as well as genuine giants. It has nothing to do with Liston v marcinao.

exactly.

 

and? he still weighed 180+ pounds on fight night. he's giving up too much weight against a man who's too skilled for the diffeence to be a non-factor.

Fitzsimmons was officially a HW when he fought Jeffries, but ti doesn't change the fact that today he'd be seen as a small MW.

My comments about SuperHeayweights was because you said rocky would always make a fight competitive and I contend that against a skilled super heavy he wouldn't be competitive.

Against Liston of course he would be, but ultimately his competitiveness would see him take too many punches and get stopped, imo.

 

Intelligent Post :good

 

Remember, Liston would be punching down on marciano and would find rocky pretty frustrating and awkward. Liston would not enjoy the space to use that jab to set things up as easily as some would hope. It would not be one way traffic. bombs would be coming both ways, something Liston was not used to.

I would expect a competitive fight at the very least. Of the two marciano coped better in competitive fights. There is no evidence of anyone entirely overwhelming marciano in an exchange.

Liston could take a punch but he fought a lot of frozen fighters who were already psyched out. I noticed in fights of his that often a punch would register and cause pause for thought. ali and whitehurst for example bothered sonny at times with single shots. patterson was a good puncher but he never got the chance to hit Liston. williams stung Liston but did not hit as hard as marciano according to kenne simmons who fought both.

Marciano countered his way in. Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. .

Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming.

marciano was horrible to fight. Liston would be a hard opponent for marciano but it works both ways if both are prime.