Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

:good nail on the head.

 

How come I dont mind you thinking Liston beats Marciano to a standstll and keep him at range with jabs but you resort to saying I am so biased about marciano that I think he beats everybody just because I think sonny would find rocky stylisticly awkward and hard to nail with a jab? taking away the trump card of being more proven at top level I still think rocky is all wrong for Liston and has a better chin. whats the problem?

 

because you have provided no reason why Marciano is such a nightmare for Sonny, other than his bobbing and weaving which lots of opponents tried and failed at.

Wheras Sonny is a nightmare for Marciano because of a demon jab, a large height and reach advantage that augments the demon jab to something even nastier, an obvious power advantage and all outside Listons prime. God forbid that then still reigning champion Rocky stepped into the ring with a prime late twentysomething Liston, he would get **** kicked out of him.

 

You said you favour the man who's never been knocked out and the man with the best form.

You can apply that argument for rocky over everyone. As you say, it's your trump card.

Rocky beats everyone, ever.

 

Liston was indeed a heavy-handed puncher but you did not have to be a dance master to survive against sonny at his best - just as with Rocky. There is no guarantee Liston gets the front foot here. Marciano drew you into him nobody kept him on the outside -ever. Not saying it is impossible but to keep rocky outside one would need faster feet than Liston. Rocky did not expose himself on the outside, he did not swarm for the sake of swarming until he had the edge in range close up.

Liston would not be landing unanswered combinations, Marciano would be firing back at each turn, halting momentum instantly. Liston would find that without forward momentum full power is not achieved. Liston would still hurt Marciano but rocky hurt all the men he fought too. rocky was good at landing first so I would think Liston could become cautious.. power and strength can be neutralised against an awkward opponent. This would be a real possibility for both..

rocky fought off the other mans leads, he would want jabs to come at him, always ready. Marciano had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Liston would come in but struggle to find room inside then get hit back
Both Liston and Marciano had two handed power but I think a frustrated Liston being crowded up close, nuetralised of his own power and frustrated could be at a disadvantage.

Marciano was horrible to fight and more experienced than Liston. Sonny would be a hard opponent for Marciano too but it works both ways if both are prime. Once they both start swapping punches I think Marciano would win the exchanges, he was harder to hit with consecutive punches and also had a better chin.
　
rocky and sonny fought within roughly the same times, opposite ends of the same era where nothing much had changed. overall most heavyweights were 6 foot 195lb throughout. Marciano successful with disadvantages in size against better opponents and Liston was successful with advantages in size against lesser opponents. would you say the smaller guy who beats better fighters is a certainty to lose to the bigger guy who beats up lesser guys smaller than he?

Now, mr ren how was all that for offering many reason of "why marciano is such a nightmare for Liston"?

 

This is not the case. the case I make for rocky is purly down to stylistic factors IMO. re post #182

 

Sonny fought well on the inside too, he wasnt limited to just a killer jab. He crushed people harder than Marciano when they got close, hence the faster knockout power he had. I dont see why you thinki Marciano has an advantage there. He is the weaker one.

so would Liston

and Liston thrived on people who stayed closeto him. Not sure Rocky has an advantage there either.

only ever seen Liston frustrated by Ali, who would equally frustrate Marciano too, waaaay to fast for Rock to keep up with despite the Rocky nuthuggers claims.

was Liston not horrible to fight either then? He was no picnic, mate, I can tell you.
Marciano started pro boxing VERY late and had a tiny amateur career, so he hardly qualifies for more experience, comparable to Sonnys late start.

you are welcome to 'think' Marciano would win exchanges.
　

Marciano's best wins are on the contrary against smaller opponents than Listons, though they have both knocked out big opponents. Although Maricano faced marginally better opposition than Sonny, he fought 'excellent' lower weight fighters who were lessened to merely 'very good' at heavyweight. He struggled with them. Liston did not, bar Ali who would wreck Rocky anyway.

 

weaker in a stregth sence but not ring sence. Marciano could cause the kind of mauling tangle that would frustrate Liston. There is no discounting this possibilty.

If marciano is landing he makes a better impresion than cleveland williams and burt whithurst did.

take a look at the burt whitehurst and machen fights Liston was frustrated. Yes they all aproached Liston differently to how rocky would but their succsess angered Liston.

Liston would be a bad fight for marciano, but it is a bad fight for Liston too.

and you thinking liston would win exchanges also. Rocky wont be freezing up and standing stock still once Liston unloads.
　

Sonny struggled with summerlin - a good fighter who I have seen film of. The bigger fighters Liston faced were not in rockys class and often not bigger than liston himself. sonny was outweighed only a handfull of times. Rocky almoat 30 times. I would say walcott and charles were better than "very good" at heavyweight.

 

At best rocky can hope to drag liston into a war on the inside. I think we agree there choklab.

I'm saying if the two are trading, on the inside, i'd fully expect liston to gain the upper hand.

Ofcourse there's always the possibility that rocky lands a perfect shot and knocks sonny out, but that aside I think liston is too big, powerful and strong to lose an exchange on the inside.

Against someone much quicker like louis or tyson, he could take too many blows before coming back with his own. But against rocky I don't see a speed advantage nor a skill advantage. I think comes down to who has the better punch/chin ratio in this fight and that is liston for me.

No 180+ pound swarmer is going to beat sonny.

 

That’s fair enough if that is how you see it but Marciano was more than just a 180 pound swarmer. If that were the case I would normally agree with you. Marciano was not a regular swarmer at all. Rocky was an awkward pressure fighter with two handed power and top durability. Typically swarmers do not counter or feint their way in. typical swarmers punch their way in at range and follow a rhythmic pattern, often only have one handed power and are easily picked off by boxers with better reach and size but Marciano was not easy to pick off at all. power came from both guns. Rocky feinted and drew opponents down into his range then swarmed. There was no rhythm or pattern and few openings to exploit against rocky for the classy opponents with faster hands than Liston that marciano met in real life .
　
Liston led with power shots. His left jab was a power shot - he leaned in with everything on it. His jab set everything up especially the short hook that came off his jab. If everything comes off listons jab what happens if he finds marciano hard to hit with a jab? sure he has the short hook but I don’t think he will lead with it, if the jab misses marciano is already throwing back. If the jab lands first rocky takes it but the next punch wont land and rockys already throwing again. If Liston uses his short hook as a lead weapon he will be right up where marciano reaches him also. The long lead uppercut Liston used on patterson would not land on Marciano at range because of the differences in stance between floyd and rocky. This is not to say sonny cant put marciano over, of course he can but I think marciano can land on sonny at least as often as Liston lands on rocky. there is more chance IMO sonny gets overwhelmed than vice versa.

 

Excellent points...the thing is most people think Marciano is Frazier, while they were completely different fighter, Marciano fought low and back and even some of the best jabbers could not land without given themselves exposure to Rocky's unorthodox and rhythm breaking power. Also Marciano had a 2 fisted offense while Frazier mainly relied on his left hook. Liston never fought a puncher like Marciano and it could be said that Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston but Marciano was hit by pinpoint punchers with power that were Liston's size or bigger. Would Marciano be in a tough fight yes but I think the biggest factor IMO would be Marciano's lack of fear in this one but That's just my take on it.

 

I see it this way but not everyone gets Rocky

 

exactly. Frazier was a great fighter in his own right and as effective during his own peak as marciano but by a different route. The stance and pace was different and frazier only had one hand albeit as good as two since he doubled it up so well.

 

dont I know it!:good