Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Liston trained down. He skipped rope like a maniac to do so. Compare their dimensions if you don't believe me. Liston is the bigger man but that isn't even the whole story. Marciano was stronger than damn near all of his opponents and all of his title challengers. They all conceded that. But he is not stronger than Liston and in a fight like this, that counts.

I'm well aware of Marciano's style. Have you seen Liston's uppercuts? I'm also well aware of his subtle defensive moves, but he isn't going to be quick-stepping around Liston and that's the point. He is going to be in the line of fire and he is going to be coming in. He is not going to be moving Liston backwards because Liston is too strong.

Don't get me wrong, I grew up a few miles from Marciano territory and I'm a monster fan of his. But I ain't a blind fan. He'd have real problems with Liston -hell, Liston is exactly the wrong style for his style. Marciano himself attested to that brute strength he saw in the Patterson fight -'he just walked right through him like he wasn't even there' he said.

 

I agree that since you have a per-notion it's almost impossible for me to open up your mind.

It's ok, we'll just agree to disagree :good

 

i been thinking about this for a while.
liston was essentially a bully and rocky was essentially a warrior.
unless liston gets a early stoppage he has no chance. quit on stool around 10-12th round

 

Let's look a little closer at what Liston really did and what he really was.

Liston was about 6' and about 210-215 Lbs. at his best. Some sources have his reach listed as 84" but I've also read that this was exaggerated. He wasn't a 6'5" fight with an eightysomething inch reach... he'd have to punch up at guys like V. or W. Klitschko, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Holmes, even Holyfield (who is 2" taller)... and that one guy who supposedly had a shorter reach than Liston but it really didn't look like it when they fought... Muhammad Ali! Regardless of how long his reach was... when your shorter and slower it matters.

Liston struggled with Johnny Summerlin twice early in his career (W8 and WSD).

He went 2-1 (1) vs. Marty Marshall... who was not a big puncher but broke Liston's jaw, had been stopped 4 times prior to facing Liston, he was 180Lbs and looked like a SMW.

Wins over the likes of Whitehurst x2, Bethea, Daniels, Cab, even DeJohn, Williams x2, and a washed up Valdes don't mean much to me.

Who really cares about Besmanoff, King x2, Harris, Westphal, Clark, Moore x2, and even Wepner?

Wins over Folley, Machen, and Patterson x2 mean something to me... I'll even throw in the 2 wins over Williams. As good as Folley and Patterson were they were not the most durable HWs around. Folley was stopped by Doug Jones among others and Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ. Machen was not as slick as those two but he was more durable (most of the time) and did manage to last the 12 round distance with Liston... he was even competitive. Machen was stopped in 1 round by Johansson (who had good power) and a young Frazier (KO10) when Machen was fading. Williams is overrated IMO but Liston beat him easily twice so I'll say good wins over Williams.

So, Liston over Marciano? Why? Yes, Liston was about 2" taller and had a much longer reach even if it wasn't 84". He was at least 20 Lbs. heavier. So, what? Marciano isn't going to try and out jab Liston or even try to beat him fighting on the outside even for 1 second. Marciano is going to try and slip punches, get on the inside, and land short punches to the head and body followed up with bigger punches to the head and body and anything else that gets in the way. Marciano wasn't slow, he had a good workrate, and great stamina. Marciano also had a very good chin.

Wins over a faded Louis KO8, an as good as ever Walcott KO13, a faded Charles x2, and an as good as ever Moore is better than what Liston did IMO. Add in that he stopped Walcott in 1 in the rematch... maybe Walcott was still as good as ever?

I'll go with Marciano by late round KO. Liston would outbox Marciano at times but in the end Rocky prevails.

 

Walcott was quicker and slicker than Liston, so was Moore... so I don't see your point.

 

Liston QUIT on his stool against Ali in Miami in Feb.1964...this is how a champion relinquishes his title?...by quitting against a light hitting Clay?...taking a DIVE against Ali in Maine in 1965...with the "phantom punch"...I've seen better acting in the WWF...Marciano had HEART...power...chin...stamina...and a"kill or be killed" attitude...he'd beat Sonny on heart alone...

 

Yeah both were the top hw for about 4 years in a row. Liston lost early and avenged it by ko; rocky should have lost early and avenged it by ko.

Rocky fought better guys who were old, liston looked dominant against lesser guys who were prime.

I agree with your notion the fight will be fought on the inside but i'd favour the bigger, heavier powerhouse over the smaller rugged fitness freak.

 

all true facts.:good

 

Let's start with the facts ...

Liston was over thirty pounds of muscle heavier than Marciano was in the bouts they won the title. Not twenty, thirty and all of it muscle.

Liston had a 17" reach advantage.

From a stylistic standpoint Marciano built his career by wearing down fighters with consistent, punishing shots. To do so he used strength and stamina to work his way inside and pound them down. He had some classic one punch KO's along the way but far more were chewed down like Charles, LaStarza, Cockell and Moore. I personally just don't see how he pulls it off against a much larger, stronger, harder hitting fighter with a huge reach advantage , an excellent , punishing jab and a ridiculous reach advantage.

I don't see Rocky having any better shot v.s. Sonny than I would see Dick Tiger having against Rocky ... there is a reason weight divisions exist ... of course some small men beat some larger men however when your matching up excellent fighters the bigger man has the advantage. Rocky's game was strength and power and Sonny clearly tops him in both departments.

 

so how come Listons weight went up? If Liston was past 40 when he fought clay then he was not a boy at 198lb in 1953 was he? If sonny trained down surly his weight would have been stable over his career or may have even fallen.

yes, Liston had thinner legs.

Of course Liston was bigger but 90% of rockys opponets were bigger than he was, I dont see your point. If bigger means stronger it never botherd marciano. Liston on the other hand was heavier than all but 4 of his opponents. Marciano concede size and kept winning, Liston almost never conceded size so I am not sure how this means rocky cant concede size? Even if Liston was stronger than any man rocky ever beat is that going to neutralise anything stylistcly marciano can do in the ring? george chuvalo was stronger than patterson, bonavena was stronger than frazier, bonecrusher was stronger than tyson, max baer stronger than joe louis, uzcudun stronger than schmeling ..the strongest guy wont always win.

If you are aware of rockys defensive subtlties why say "Wading in directly at Liston will invite concussions, cuts, and catastrophe for the Rock"? surly if marciano is edging carefuly forwrad, feinting for openings behind his side on, crab defence rather than wading in inviting punishment it would be catastrophic for Liston? Why does marciano have to quick step around? If he has defended his way in, got low and close wouldnt rocky already be where he wanted to be? Why would Listons strength be an asset inside if the man is on his chest and effecting his balence and leverage? Long upercuts from outside are harder to land on a side on stance, Liston cannot land clean on rocky from outside IMO. All the men he hurt from outside stood square and tall. inside its 60-40 for marcinano.

Marciano was right. patterson was not "there" that night.

 

and just 5lb heavier than marciano on their pro debuts. I never saw muscle win a fight.

he did but people still hit him back.

Rockys strength was stamina, power, akwardness, durabilty and heart.

Did Liston top marciano for stamina?

Did liston top marciano for durabilty?

Did Liston top marciano for heart?

did Liston have a cute style to negate marciano's awkwardness?

Liston did have power but did he knock out guys bigger than he was?

 

Some cases the harder puncher does not always win, chin plays a factor in it too imo.

Its not really if Liston hit harder than Marciano, but who can take the others bombs better. Marciano is going to get punchings in on Liston. And the gameplan each side will used will win the bout. I make Marciano the underdog, but I would not write him off like some posts seem to be doing.

Marciano has shown time and again all he needed was one will time shot to end things like he did vs Layne, Walcott or Matthews. I dont think Liston had a elite chin in regards to Ali or Jeff. I think if Marciano landed that shot, he could take Liston out.

 

All of the guys that Marciano had these great knockouts against were smaller then Liston. and they didn't have the same chin.

 

Not sure on that, Didnt Ali a lesser puncher took Liston out with 1 punch.

I dont think Liston had a elite chin imo. Dive or not(Which I dont think it was) Ali did tag him pretty good.

 

it was the clearest fix in the history of sport. and ive seen ronnie o'sullivan miss 3 shots on the black, the last one dead straight about a foot, it was a disgrace, but liston was worse and more obvious.