It's not lazy, it's occam's razor. The most simple theory is usually the correct one. This fight will never happen. We have competing theories as to how it would pan out. My theory makes less assumptions. I see two guys trading shots. As the bigger guy who is equally adept at infighting I see liston as a favourite. We'll never know of course but it's my take :good
golota is one example amongst many, not exactly the same as liston. and it is in the context of vs marciano that liston looks weak to me not just generally, he is not top level in that department though. other people are discussing the technical and historical stuff well. neither fought a top top level competitor in prime. i don't see liston landing many bombs and he doesn't have the workrate to really accumulate damage, cuts aside. i am no huge marciano fan ( i have a cycling team i support, that is enough), i think does not look as good on film as he would have looked to his opponent/ been. like i say i dont worry about boxing but i have done, trading is different to gambling but the i would put on £20 if rock decently over evens in a bookies and i was in the mood. the last part seems unfair on rocky. a career is not about being considered as one thing when your dead, it is about making money and quiting while your ahead, especially dangerous ones. doesn't help him in h2h but seems a smart career to me.
this is based on film you have seen then?:huh understandable and fair. nothing wrong with thinking that. haha. and I was right. :hey:good Goldman was rockys trainer but he and bimstein pissed in the same pot with a lot of fighters, they worked together a lot , consulting one another. al weil was the business end. both knew how to make the best out of what a fighter had and whoever devised what arturo acheived against a far superior fighter than Liston in prime joe louis knew what he was doing. the format would and did apply to Liston. Nothing Godoy had over louis first time around could be attributad to Godoys size. 2the gameplan neutralised joe louis. It took Louis and blackburn over 15 rounds to crack godoys style. did Liston have 15 rounds in him against a better puncher than godoy? marciano was a 1950s heavyweight. Liston was also a 1950s heavyweight.
Now, for the FORTH time of asking how about answering my question: "did Liston top marciano for heart, durability, stamina, did he have the capacity to beat men bigger than he was and was sonny slick enough to neutralise Marcianos awkwardness?"
OK, i understand it is just down to you thinking liston adapting his longer arms and extra weight inside and shortening his hooks to half steam at close range with more impresion quicker than marciano can with shorter arms at full steam and greater workrate.:good
You're questions are foolish .. Liston pre- Clay showed hug heart ... fighting with broken jaws, taking bombs from Cleveland Willams, a much bigger puncher than anyone Marciano ever fought, stamina he went a fast twelve with Machen and was fresh at the end ... everyone else he knocked out .. the silliest is Marciano's "awkward style" .. what does that imply, that Marciano was some James Toney on defense ? Look at Rocky's face after the Walcott, the Charles and the Moore fights and tell me what a defensive master he was .. the likely reality is that after a few rounds of being pounded by Liston's monster jab Marciano would be busted up, swelled up and stopped much like Hagler stopped MInter and all the heart in the world would not make up for the fact that Marciano's game was strength and power and against Sonny he would be dwarfed in both departments ...
It's based on a hundred ringside reports. Do you doubt history before 1895? There's no film after all. Are we sure that Scipio Africanus instructed his front lines to blow bugles and trumpets to panic those elephants Hannibal sent in? There's no film! Two facts remain. Bimstein did not train Marciano and Louis beat Godoy and beat him clearly in the opinion of the vast majority of press row. I've seen the fight and agree. Louis a "far superior" fighter to Liston? I'm not so sure. Louis is greater obviously in terms of accomplishments, but I'm pretty damn sure that Liston would have gotten Godoy out of there long before 15 rounds. ...And?
Come on now. No more than Walcott did over Louis, Young over Ali, Mercer over Lewis. Actually less, the fight was basically split in opinion. Marciano dropped him. In a modern context that's a win. Basically, you could do this for any fighter really. Except in this case LaStarza didn't deserve the first fight because it wasn't even close to a robbery. Alright, good to know Foreman beats Liston too...
And many people consider jersey to have won the first and young to have beaten ali. I scored the fight for lewis. A kd doesn't equal a victory, just take pac v jmm 1 or peter v wlad. This is a thread about liston v rocky but if you think foreman beats liston fair play. Make a thread and have it debated :good
I'm glad you understand now. Although I have no reason to believe liston would only be at half steam.
against a 176 pounder... but not as hard a puncher as archie moore and marciano himself. chasing a man who was spoiling most of the time. It was not "give and take" all the way. johny summerlin? burt whitehurst, neal wealch? glancing blows still mark a man up, how many clean shots did he take? the likely reality is that after a few rounds of being pounded by Liston's monster jab ...[/quote] when did a jab bother marciano? It was dificult for faster punchers than liston to land two blows without taking one back.
this. Cant believe people make out Marciano was a defensive master when he got so badly mauled in many fights. How deluded do you have to be? Jeez/
speculation, no one ever did that to Marciano and Cleveland Williams despite his size and muscular physique could not punch near the level of Marciano nor could he take a great punch, Bob Satterfield promptly disposed of the 31-1 Big Cat....but my biggest concern for Liston is that he quit twice vs Ali and if he shared the ring with the the strong-willed and powerful punching Marciano he would fold again. We could say he was old but Liston vs the Leotis the steam ran out of Liston when Leotis got off the floor and Leotis was not a puncher but when he went at Sonny he made Sonny uncomfortable and ultimately knock him out cold for several minutes To compare the Hagler/Minter fight to a Liston/Marciano fight is way-off and even if you compared it to Hagler/Anterfermo 1, Hagler was known for his strong chin and never quit Brockton style while Vito, strong willed and no fear could not come close to punching like Marciano or fight like his style but his will did slow Marvin down and make him back up and most fans and experts were shocked because Vito was supposed to be a mosquito but heart played a role.