Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

And that's where we disagree.

I think rocky takes a competitive beating.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Liston's promoters openly took a share of Ali. If Liston and his lot were linked with or bankrolled by the mob, the mob men would take their cut. It is also 'known' that Don King, a former 'numbers' racketeer, was bankrolled into boxing by a loan from the Cleveland mafia. The mob 'owned' the Las Vegas casinos through the years when Vegas became the fight capital too.

 

What you describe is correct.
But why do people think it needs a heavy organized criminal mob to influence results anyway ? Like you say it is not Hollywood script.
"Legit" promoters and managers and fighters are just as capable of influencing result - when/if it happens at all - and have even clearer motives. The name of the game is to make money. That means drawing a crowd. That means building certain fighters up - the ones that draw the crowd. That motive right there. Some good fighters have better careers routinely losing to groomed fighters than they do when they spring the upset.*

(*I hasten to add most of that is done legitimately but a motive for certain guys never quite winning is clear.)

(When you add into the equation that some of these fighters, promoters and managers are linked with gambling rackets too or are gamblers themselves, that's another motive.
Eg, Sonny Liston. People come with mafia connection conspiracy stuff to explain that he 'threw the title' or 'took a dive' in Lewiston. I dont know about that but the man seems to have been a heavy gambler himself. You dont need the mafia to explain why Sonny Liston took a dive. I'm not saying he did, but IF he did ....)

 

Are we to also completely dismiss the notion that liston threw his shoulder out against ali by missing too many power shots (as vitali did against byrd)?

I don't think it should be treated as fact that he quit, unless there are facts i'm not privvy to.

Calling the rematch a dive is again something i'm not comfortable with. A flash ko in the realm of hw boxing seems much more plausible to me.

 

Both fights might have been completely on the level.

 

Sonny would be win by TKO, too much hard jabs,left hooks,right hands and too much cuts in Rockys face )
but it would be a ****ing hard FIGHT/WAR ;-)

 

All accounts that I have read describe a shift in mob control ending with Liston and that ALi was able to avoid it ... a changing of eras ... note that Don KIng formed his own mob rule in the late 70's through the late 80's in his parnerships with the WBC ...

 

Ah I figured that would make more sense to you but to me something was wrong in Denmark. How many Flash KD's did Ali have in his career and this little anchor punch had Liston rolling around for several minutes unless Liston's chin was far less sturdy than advertized ....The difference between the Ali/Liston fight and the Vitali/Byrd fight is Liston was severely behind while Vital was far ahead, an injury is always a possibility but the quicker give up the 2nd time around for Liston vs Ali kind of fortifies the quit as does in the Tyson/Evander duet in fight 1&2.

 

This is my point. Unless there's something i'm unaware of, the claims of dive seem to be deus ex machina promoted to protect his image as unbeatable. Kalambay got stopped in one by nunn, **** happens.

Byrd was well in the fight. I had it 5-4 to vitali with byrd coming on strongly. I'd be amazed if vitali would have taken any of the last rounds the way the fight was shaping up. Liston missed much more against ali and throws his punches with much more menace. A similar shoulder injury doesn't seem like a huge leap in imagination to me.

 

Not True, the Dundee family had strong ties to Carlos Marcella and some Florida mobsters.....The unit of the black Muslims that controlled Ali were a Newark NJ group and there leader was an informant for years (Jeremiah Shabbaz...Liston had no fear of the Black Muslims ( the Newark group were petty drug dealers selling to there own kind) because he had a close connection to Frankie Carbo (they were friends) I am not saying that the Dundees were corrupt, in fact they have been known to be honest men but they had a voice of there own and would be protected if push came to shove because there was so much heat over the Ali/Liston fights.

The mob made money through promotion and they controlled the promoters but only few of the fights were fixes, its no different today with Delahoya who uses his clout with his judges, Don King had ties to the Cleveland Mob but they did not trust him because he was said to be an informant. Even Joe Frazier had a partner (ex-Boxer Gangster Johnny Digilio) Frazier had money on the street with Johnny and had a piece of Heavyweight Razor Rudduck before Johnny was killed by his own people in the NY family for his internal ambitions.

Now if you take Bob Arum, he was a former DA and had friends in high places (his own Mob) when the feds went after King (who was corrupt as they come controlling the ABC group and Ring Magazine) I would not doubt if it was Arum that fueled the King investigation simply because Boxing and King were not in the sights of the FBI, why because the F.B.I were only really concerned with the Italian groups and influence and did not care to spend money on a short lived corruption in there mind, while they felt the Italians had arms like an Octopus and were organized. But it was just business and nothing personal

 

The momentum of the Underdog Ali was building and remember (I lived it) everyone expected Liston to smash Ali so the fact that Ali was hitting him at will was astounding, like many except the wise expected Foreman to crush Ali like he did Norton. The wise boxing people saw Foreman's weaknesses (I was not wise at the time) but even the wise never expected Ali to pull it off against Liston at the time

Today we have seen many cases of the bully folding his tent, Tyson did it a few times and Tyson was thought of much more ferocious than Liston

 

I can see your most be young, I answered your question several times and let me do it again. If Williams hit you on the chin he would sever your head but he was not a puncher in the elite and I don't think he would stand out in any era but any heavyweight even Ross Purity can KO a man if he hits him right...but I'm not so impressed with Williams and unlike you I think proof would be who he knocked-out not because how else would we know but by results and not speculation.

As far as Ring Magazine a lot of the older guys were older than Nat F. and they started dieing off, Loubet was Ring Wrestling editor and Ort was his son -in -law, after Nat F. died the Ring was involved in a corruption scandal in which Ort was found excepting payoff from Don King to bolster the rankings of a Larry Holmes opponent among others. The control of the Rings influence was in the hands of Ort who had basic boxing knowledge and Nat who was the Wrestling editor and did not really have good knowledge of boxing and the Rings credibility crumbled.

You may have been too young to know this but do some research