Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

legend x. that is a very good point, is was thinking from the angle that they controlled the madison square garden(and many other) bills. this allows them direct control over a fighter before an approach is made.

McGrain. i would call that a fixed fight myself but words are always open to interpretation, i will say corrupted fight. in the example of ketchell v johnson there is no criminal organisation involved, and once the agreement was broken we saw the difference. my sports historian comment was about all of sports, many boxing experts cannot ignore the obvious some do.

the importance of this discussion to the thread is that liston had mob 'backing' most of his career and it has affected an analysis of his ultimate ability, especially the intangibles.

edit. goes without saying ref's and judges set aside from my comments.
in the past heavyweight champions generally made significantly more than lower classes.(or is this a myth?)

 

carrying opponents is the same as what used to be called a "gee fight" or "gee up" in England or "wearing handcuffs" as it is called in the states. In the small hall circuit fighters booked to fight each week would pre-arrange to have a gee up (make it look good but pull punches) for the first eight rounds of a 10 rounder fight then have the last 2 on the level. I know for a fact this is true and will explains the eye popping 200 fight plus careers old timers would have. By and large "big time boxing" still is a closed shop and always has been. If you are not invited to the party many a potentially great fighter will never break through and will be matched hard or do business. The majority of fans only watch big time boxing and will assume all fighters good enough will roll off 20-0 records which is utter bull****. Big time Boxing can afford to be on the level since it is between fighters connected to the big power players who have it all sewn up. Away from TV and the big time closed shop circuit plenty of strange stuff is still going on away from the limelight. Check out the verdicts on the under cards of even big shows and you get an idea of the smell all the “house v away” bouts have. There are legit ways to keep a good earner winning, its called match making. Out and out fixes at top level are as rare as undisputed titles.

 

marciano had more work rate and was harder to hit clean than Liston as well as having the better jaw. Often if two punchers meet the guy with the worst whiskers lucks out. Often when two punchers meet it is the guy with the better engine who wins. Again, that would be rocky. whilst often true that "a good big man beats a good little man", at just 1 inch shorter does marciano qualify as that much smaller?

old joe louis was the same size as Liston, whilst not as great a fighter as liston at that point louis's size did not factor at all against marciano. Remember,at age 24-29 Liston was 198 natural pounds and at his title winning best he was but 10lb heavier than joe walcott who could not force rocky back.

 

Liston would outweigh Marciano by about 24 pounds.
And old Joe Louis did look a good deal bigger than Rocky and gave Rocky quite a decent fight.

But Rocky was like a piece of iron. And despite his modest size for a HW, he had a monstrous presence.

 

Louis was about 2" taller than Liston or 1.5 inches taller, weight wise they were about the same but Louis was a far better fighter than Liston and that is proven