Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Well, we can speculate on Marciano v Clay/Ali all day, but I agree that Muhammad was hardly green by the time he fought Liston. He was probably not the finished article yet, but he wasn't too far off. I think some of the adversity he did have to deal with like the Cooper and Jones fights prepared him well for Liston.

 

It depends on how you rate things.

Marciano accomplished more by making more title defenses.

Liston looked better in the ring, and more formidable.

In a legacy sense, Marciano is greater. In a head to head sense, I think Liston is greater. If you could combine the best traits of Marciano and Liston, you have one heck of a fighter.

 

We dont know that.

And that alone shouldnt put him ahead.

The best way to be objective in a subjective sport is to rate ATG Champtions on:

1. Tenure as Champ (dominance, longevity or consistency)
2. Quality of Opposition (fighting the best available fighters in thier era)
3. Ability as a fighter (subjective but technical proficiency can sometimes be pretty clear to true boxing fans)


I have Marciano ahead btw following these criteria but in terms of H2H strictly? I got Sonny Liston higher.

 

It is commonly referred to as Clay/Liston as he announced his change the following day if I remember. Anyways, semantics.

I find him skittish but effective early in that fight. It truly was the fight that transformed him into something more than he was before it, I will agree. However, it followed directly two fights in which he did appear vulnerable against smaller, lesser fighters. It was the last time for many years that he was ripe for the picking. Liston certainly gets beat worse in 66-67 and not just because he suddenly got old. He was still a very feared commodity.

 

Sonny had the look but his best wins were over Patterson and that Patterson was down many times and Ko'd before. Patterson was even dropped by a fighter in his 1st pro fight Pete Radamaker. Liston was up there in the mean look department and had a great powerfull Jab. How goood was Sonny, Big Cat was overated...Sonny looked slow and cumbersome vs Ali and Cooper the faster man found the mark more effectively than Sonny. Valdez was a win but nothing great...Sonny was in the Body type scary top 5, Tyson was in it 2....I think Big Cat had a body for it also....and Ron Lyle but could they live up to the look inside the ring....Tyson did the best

 

I personaly rate Marciano higher but I would not say that sombody who had Liston higher was being unrealistic let alone insane.

In many ways they make an interesting paralel.

They are the last of the "pre olympic ticket" all time great heavyweights and both were thrown to the wolves early on in their profesional careers, with verry little amateur experience. While Patterson and Ingo rode the olympic train, Liston was a throwback to the likes of Walcott and Marciano. In that respect they are the last of the old guard.

Where they differ is that Marciano had mediocre physical asets on paper and made up for it with training ethic while Liston had outstanding physical asets but lost focus once he got to the top.

Ironicaly the T rex armed slugger came out with a slightly better resume than the gorilla armed boxer puncher who had everything.

 

We dont know that?? Walcott I, behind on the cards, blind for 3 or so rounds??
Charles II, split nose. Came back to win. I think we should know Marciano would not quit.

 

marciano knocking ezzard charles out when he had too with his nose bleeding like a faucet with just 23 seconds left in the round(or fight for that matter) is one of the greatest stories in boxing history. Makes u laugh when u see genaro hernandez quitting with a broken nose, marciano refused to give up when his nose was nearly torn off!!

 

"Liston looked better in the ring, and more formidable."

Except when he didn't, such as against Besmanoff, Machen, and King, not to mention Ali.

 

old fogey have u seen liston vs folley, valdez and dejohn? these are some of his best knockouts according to the papers and yet 99% of us here have not seen them. is that fair to liston?

 

For those that say liston did not accomplish much............


Let me ask you outside of louis and ali

which heavyweight accomplished more and was more dominant than this 6 year run........


Red - Ranked in the top 10 by ring magazine

Green - was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston

1958:
6'3 193lb

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TKO 2

6'0 204lb

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TKO 1


1959:

6'5 202lb

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TKO 6

6'3 210lb Cleveland Williams TKO 3

6'3 211lb

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KO 3


1960:

6'3 216lb

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TKO 2

6'1 195lb

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TKO 1

6'1 199lb

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KO 3

6'0 196lb

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W 12


1961: 5'7 195lb

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KO 1


1962: 6'0 195lb

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KO 1

1963: 6'0 195lb

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KO 1



Record against the following men: 12-0(11)


11-0(10) knockouts against Opposition who was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


7-0(6kos) against top 10 ring magazine annuel rated contenders during this run

Record during this time against the rated 6'0 + 200lb + men: 5-0(5kos)


- Out of all these wins, the only close fight liston had was eddie machen, and even this according to the papers and most who view the fight was not controversial. so out of these 12 fights against top opposition, liston did not have one real controversial win, which means he clearly and cleanly DOMINATED his opposition. The same cannot be said of many other champions. Also take note on the size of his opposition, as the size of his opposition when up the more he dominated his opponent.




Lastly lets look at the age of the following opponents when the fight took place


1958: Billy Hunter age 24
Wayne Bethea age 25

1959: Mike Dejohn age 27
Cleveland Williams age 25
Nino Valdez age 34

1960: Roy Harris age 26
Cleveland willaims age 26
Zora Folley age 29
Eddie Machen age 28


1961 Albert Westphal age 30


1962 Floyd Patterson age 26

1963 Floyd Patterson age 27



So out of these 12 men, only one Nino Valdez was over the age of 30. Listons pretty much wiped out all the prime contenders in there 20s. His record in these bouts i listed above against men under 30 is 10-0(9). what heavyweight champion fought such young prime contenders as much as liston did? What heavyweight champion fought a career average list of contenders 27-28 years old?

 

if you look at overall resumes there's not much between them you could even say that sonny's is a little bit better,although as a champion rocky achieved more and you would have to rank him higher with his 6 defences and retiring unbeaten,while sonny just has 1 succesfull defence before the 2 ali debacles.one thing always puzzles me about liston being probably rightly regarded as a bully,was that in the 2 williams matches he took some huge bombs from big cat and basically just walked right through him showing great heart,while he quit on his stool the 1st time with ali and lay down the 2nd fight.a real contradiction in his mentallity there which makes you think were there other things in play.

 

Cooper said that in the return with Ali was far better inside ,in their first fight he just held and waited for the ref to break them .