Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Is it time for a separate Liston Worship Forum?

 

I don't know but if they need an admin, you'd better clean your pm box before it gets overflowed.

 

Boxing has a funny way of bringing out certain emotions in people. One day you are blood and guts rocky and the next day you don't have hte stomach for it- just not your night. Never is a word that shouldnt be used in boxing. "Not likely" would be the appropriate substitute.

George Foreman gets credited with lots of heart for enduring punishment against Holyfield, coming from behind against Moorer, Getting up and fighting back against Lyle but he quit against Muhammad Ali in Zaire. That cannot be forgotten.

Lamon Brewster was seen as the guy with loads of heart never say die attitude and pulled out one of the biggest wins in his career against Wlad after taking what could be considered in humane punishment. In the rematch he quit knowing fully that he didnt have the guts, patience or stomach to take another beating- it wasnt in him that night.

Jose Luis Castillo fought a hard fought fight against Mayweather possibly giving Floyd one of his toughest fights, he was blood and guts never-say-die against Corrales in each encounter but he more or less quit against Ricky Hatton.

Even Sonny Liston himself fought with a broken jaw and lost split decision to Marty Marshall early in his career. Had the internet been around then people would claim Liston had the heart of lion. Sonny of course, later disgraced himself against Clay who later became Ali.

Look at Andrew Golota, he found a way to mentally implode in every major fight (Bowe 2x, Lewis, Tyson) that he's had but against Byrd, Ruiz and Mollo- He kept his cool despite the frustration he may have had against Ruiz, Byrd and Mollo who just wouldnt go away.

We can't possibly claim that The Rock would never quit in any situation. There is a strong possibility that he wouldnt but to say never- defies conventional wisdom

 

The issue which was raised with Liston concerns the situation he was in when he quit. He was certainly still competitive in the fight and his facial wounds were not that severe compared to what others had fought with. Check out Basilio fighting to the finish with one eye against Robinson in their second fight.

Anyone might quit if the victim of a Willard against Dempsey style butchering.

 

To my knowledge, during the time period between Marciano's "coming-out party" in the elite heavyweight title picture against Layne and his retirement five years later, six fighters (aside from Marciano himself) were ranked number one contender by the RING: Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Roland LaStarza, Nino Valdes, and Archie Moore. Marciano fought and defeated five of the six. Two fighters (other than Marciano) were champion in that time: Charles and Walcott. Marciano fought and defeated both of them.

From the time of Liston's emergence as an elite fighter (starting with the first Williams fight) to the time Liston lost his championship to Ali, also five years later, there were five fighters (aside from Liston) ranked number one contender by the RING that I know of: Folley, Johansson, Patterson, Machen, and Clay (Ali). Of those, Liston fought four and beat three. There were also two champions (other than Liston) in that time: Patterson and Johansson. Liston fought and beat one.

If I were to make a top 10 out of Marciano's contemporaries (feel free to contradict my assessments on either of these forthcoming lists if you feel I'm misjudging), I think it would consist (not necessarily in order outside the top three) of Walcott, Charles, Moore, Johnson, old Louis, Valdes, LaStarza, Henry, Baker, and Layne. Marciano beat six of the 10, all of the top three, and arguably all of the top four/five (it becomes debatable when you're comparing old Louis with Johnson and whatnot), with a total record of 9-0 with 7 knockouts. Out of Liston's contemporaries- up until he lost the title in '64- I would roughly assess the top 10 as consisting (not necessarily in order past the top two) of Clay, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Valdes, and Jones. Liston fought six of them as well, beating five, including the #2, but not the #1 or 3, and compiled a total record of 7-1 with 6 knockouts. If we exclude Ali from consideration for the sake of argument, then I say Mike DeJohn moves into the 10th slot, and so Liston still fought six of the top 10, beat the #1, but not the #2, and has an 8-0 (7 KOs) total.

On the whole, then, I would say it's reasonably clear that Marciano has a slightly better record than Liston in terms of facing and beating the elite opposition of his era.

 

Good list.

Also, Marciano was fighter of the year twice and 3 of his championship fights were fight of the year. Not bad going.

 

Once again I can draw a parallel with Tyson here. He fought the one-dimensional but huge-punching Ruddock twice, and Ruddock got through with some big shots. He was also one Tyson opponent who was not scared of Iron Mike. Yet, Tyson wasn't deterred and won both fights handily.

In both instances, neither Tyson nor Liston were being outclassed. They took some punishment, but they were in the fight.
In the Clay fight (to be correct with the names at the time) I think it dawned on Sonny pretty quickly he wasn't going to beat him. Maybe he felt a little humiliated in being outshone by a heavy underdog.

In the 2nd Holyfield fight, I think the same happened, although by that point Holyfield was probably the betting favourite. Nonetheless, Tyson had made a lot of noise about being better for the rematch, and yet Evander was still beating him. Tyson took the easy way out, as (I believe) so did Liston.

I would not suggest either lacked heart or guts, but maybe they just didn't have the championship heart of a Holyfield or Marciano in that no matter what, they would fight on.
Or maybe Liston had reached a point in his career that made him think
"You know what? I don't need this anymore..."
Hard to tell really.

But either way, those two losses to Ali leave a bad taste in my mouth, just as Tyson's cop out against Holyfield does.

 

Excellent analysis. I would disagree on one point--Harold Johnson probably should be in the top ten of the Liston era also. He defeated Satterfield and Bethea after Marciano retired, and defeated Machen and Jones in the sixties. Valdes was older and finished by 1959, while Johnson would still fight for years and would score major wins over top heavyweights long after Valdes had retired.

 

For those that say liston did not accomplish much............


Let me ask you outside of louis and ali

which heavyweight accomplished more and was more dominant than this 6 year run........


Red - Ranked in the top 10 by ring magazine

Green - was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


1958:
6'3 193lb

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TKO 2

6'0 204lb

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TKO 1


1959:

6'5 202lb

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TKO 6

6'3 210lb Cleveland Williams TKO 3

6'3 211lb

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KO 3


1960:

6'3 216lb

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TKO 2

6'1 195lb

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TKO 1

6'1 199lb

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KO 3

6'0 196lb

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W 12


1961: 5'7 195lb

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KO 1


1962: 6'0 195lb

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KO 1

1963: 6'0 195lb

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KO 1



Record against the following men: 12-0(11)


11-0(10) knockouts against Opposition who was/is/would be rated in the top 10 within less than a year of fighting liston


7-0(6kos) against top 10 ring magazine annuel rated contenders during this run

Record during this time against the rated 6'0 + 200lb + men: 5-0(5kos)


- Out of all these wins, the only close fight liston had was eddie machen, and even this according to the papers and most who view the fight was not controversial. so out of these 12 fights against top opposition, liston did not have one real controversial win, which means he clearly and cleanly DOMINATED his opposition. The same cannot be said of many other champions. Also take note on the size of his opposition, as the size of his opposition when up the more he dominated his opponent.




Lastly lets look at the age of the following opponents when the fight took place


1958: Billy Hunter age 24
Wayne Bethea age 25

1959: Mike Dejohn age 27
Cleveland Williams age 25
Nino Valdez age 34

1960: Roy Harris age 26
Cleveland willaims age 26
Zora Folley age 29
Eddie Machen age 28


1961 Albert Westphal age 30


1962 Floyd Patterson age 26

1963 Floyd Patterson age 27



So out of these 12 men, only one Nino Valdez was over the age of 30. Listons pretty much wiped out all the prime contenders in there 20s. His record in these bouts i listed above against men under 30 is 10-0(9). what heavyweight champion fought such young prime contenders as much as liston did? What heavyweight champion fought a career average list of contenders 27-28 years old?





btw i like ur anaylsis MF

 

Very good breakdown

 

This is a good point. You're right. In fact, Johnson pretty well cleaned up on all of the fighters from my list who he fought, most of them in the time period in discussion. He moves into my top 10. Moore could almost make it as well, since he beat RING #4 Lavorante as late as '62, but he didn't face enough elite heavyweights (and was crushed by the one he did face- Clay) in that time period in my opinion.
Valdes had a good run from late '56-58, with an 11-1 run where he beat guys like Erskine, DeJohn, Bethea and McMurtry, but it seems he was absolutely finished starting in '59, when he lost to Charlie Powell and Alonzo Johnson, and since that is the beginning of the period in consideration in my analysis, on further inspection, I drop Valdes from my list. The new list will look like this:
Clay (Ali), Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones and Johnson, or Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Cooper, Terrell, Jones, Johnson and DeJohn if Clay/Ali is excluded (again, not necessarily in order after the top 2-3). Adjusting the numbers accordingly, that would mean Liston fought five of his top 10 contemporaries and went 6-2 or 7-0 depending on the respective list.

 

I like your list, but mike dejohn instead of nino valdez, despite nino beating dejohn twice and beating better fighters??


also if you include h2h as a factor, I think valdez knocks henry cooper out in under 5 rounds, or cuts his face to bits like he did too don cockell.

 

As I discussed in the above post, since I am mostly looking at the scene from the time Liston came into the title picture (starting with the DeJohn and Williams wins in early '59, which, if I'm not mistaken, were what first put Liston into the top 5), I see that Valdes had very poor results by world class standards in that time frame, with losses to Charlie Powell and Alonzo Johnson in the handful of fights he had in the said period before retiring. DeJohn was more "live" during Liston's big-time career than Valdes was.

 

It's all a matter of opinion.
Personally I'd probably rate Marciano above Liston too.

 

I agree with this.

Liston seems to get a pass because of what Cassius Clay became later on. At the time, Clay/Ali was still a developing novice, an improving fighter but not necessarily yet close to being a great one.