Liston v Holyfield

...Always thought that Briggs was one of the more likely guys to be on something. And Vinny Paz too for that matter.

 

Big Ukranian. LISTEN to the specifics & what I am saying.

Mr. Magoo is a very circumspect & intelligent poster l Listen to him too.
That it is unfair to assume most all are guilty, & not rational.

Why bother to debate if you refuse to actually follow & support specific points, especially your own? :scaredas: You CANNOT RATIONALLY just throw a bunch of evidence in absent considering WHAT you are trying to establish, or CHANGE or IGNORE your initial points. That is beyond sloppy.

It is either willfully intellectually dishonest, or shows a massive psychological block so that you are lack the discipline & will to engage & defend the substance of WHAT others & even YOU initially claimed.

1) That many use does not remotely show all or near all do. There are tons of reasons folks use: & many they may NOT. Many have been exposed, humilated, punished, banned in many sports. Also the fear of not knowing if you will be one of them. Also it would be exceedingly cynical to believe many will not have PRIDE & ETHICAL PRINCIPLES. That many will not or violate them does not show many others will want to avoid cheating, lying, denying others success fame & money, or have legitimate guilt. And then there is the self-respect for health & your future.

2) Please do not be extremely lax again & show how many WILL & DO use. You keep being told that DOES NOT SHOW how prevalent usage is, & choosing a sport where usage is highest & they do not even TEST is a terrible example to try & show all sports have mostly everybody as a criminal!

3) Now THESE point s have NOTHING to do with how common PED usage is. But as per Bruno vs. Arnold:

A) Bruno could weigh more than Arnold-who is ABSOLUTELY DWARFED by modern lifters let alone HW bodybuilders for years-mostly due to more & better drugs!

B) He is taller & has a bigger bone structure. He also would not be as cut as Arnold was in competition. Who was normally 235, at his biggest 250.

C) Compared to bodybuilders for years, Arnold had no legs. They did not make proportionate legs a necessity then.
60% of your body mass is normally below the waist.

D) Bruno's upper body measurements, despite it seems a larger skeleton, overall did not APPROACH Arnold's 57" chest & 22" arms.
You wanna be fair & balanced? God is in the details. I told you here how his WEIGHT could be near Arnold's. You care about being correct though & not impugning all with massive generalities, you need to CONSIDER how that weight could be achieved. It's constituent parts.


E) You are FACTUALLY MISTAKEN about what SOME guys can achieve naturally. A very small percentage: but a very small % of guys are elite athletes.

Were you FAIR & curiious enough about the truth to READ, or even click on, the very detailed & at times scholarly articles by Csey Butss on the web site I linked for you? [url]http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html[/url]

Now BELOW I do some work FOR you. I enter NOT the biggest possible measurements, a guy only Bruno's height, & some have even bigger bones. But this is what a quite large man CAN get to naturally, at 8-10% bodyfat, if he reaches his potential. Note the MUSCULAR measurements are LARGER than Bruno's & almost any LEAN boxer ever, with the exception of a rare guy who has an even more massive bone structure &/or is extremely tall.

Oh, & the neck-I do not know if boxing occasionally allows bigger necks, the one thing many serious lifters do not even train separately.

E) Please do not disregard my time by not being very SPECFIC in contesting or finally accepting points. And do not assume facts not in evidence OR that I have already denied: such as I am NOT saying Bruno is clean!

He may well be dirty. But he may be clean. Some have great potential & a large structure, & a FEw can get his weight with his height & bone structure. I am aware of no suspiciously very rapid weight gain for him.

Holyfield did not weigh more due to no legs.

Lewis was within what some with a large skeleton could achieve.
Or he could be a fraud. But it is wrong to assume so absent good or very suggestive evidence.

F) Reasarch the links & erudite articles & background/education of the PHD who came up with the formula for which I entered not uncommon HW bone structures below. UNLESS you can find a reason he is wrong, do not deny it out of convenience.

Note some folks, certainly in football & basketball, will have even larger skeletons, certainly taller. NOTE: "bulked" means much food somewhere in the system, like lifters typically have unless cutting/leaning out. Eatring many calories & many times a day. Here he was at 6' 3":

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That's another great example.

Lewis wasn't very muscular vs Ruddock. In fact, he was only 227 lbs not as a teenager, but at 27 years, fully developed man. Year later, at 28, he was 229 lbs.

The things changed dramatically in 95-96, hovewer, as in Butler, Fortune and Mercer fights Lewis' weight was from 246 to 248 lbs. He wasn't fat and looked much more muscular.

If fact, Lewis added 20 lbs in such a short period of time - from 27 to 29:huh

Keep in mind that he's a boxer, not bodybuilder.

Lewis' story is much like Holyfields. The only difference is that he is naturally bigger man so he was already a HW when he started to bulk up.

 

Entaowed, I appreciate your detailed post. The calculator for natural measurements is interesting for me. Just want to add some points:

1) There's no waist circumference which also would be helpful info. Big boned (freaks) guys have big waist. Primo Carnera and Abe Atell are great examples.

2) Foreman in his comeback and Briggs are known to have 20'' biceps, but Foreman was really fat. Briggs is a known user.

3) I accept your point. Finally But I need to say that boxers or track and field athletes can't reach their genetic maximum size, unlike BBs.

What I mean. We have two twins - one is a natural BB, other a natural (drugs-free) boxer.

They are training for 10 years. BB'er only lifts weights and doesn't do many other activities.

Boxer also lifts weights, but he also runs, swims, moves and boxes. In fact, he has so many activities besides lifting weights.

10 years after, BB'er has 18'' arm at 5% bodyfat. And his twin has only 16" bicep. Though they have the same genes. You know what I mean:yep

I don't want to discredit your point, just to say boxers can't reach naturally numbers which BB'ers achieve (if they have equal genetics).

 

As for measurements, they are often not correct.

Holyfield, for example, had his biceps listed as 16'' at 202 and 205 lbs. Then he put on 13 more lbs of muscles (Tyson 2), and still the numbers are 16''. His arms looked clearly bigger at 218. 13 lbs of muscles add approx. 1 inch in arm size.

It reminded me also when Roy Jones was listed before Ruiz fight as having 12'' biceps:rofl To sell the fight like David (Jones) vs Goliath (Ruiz). That were his measurements from middleweight. He added 35 lbs of muscles after that. Calculate

 

OK good NU, I was afraid you would forever stay Ego-attached to avoidance of the points you initially made & my objections, but you have shown yourself to be Big after all, thank you.

Now the measurementas-yes, often wrong. Good point that they can be too LOW too when not updated. Though those examples do not show people using.

Lewis: see he likely put on some water & fat too. It is difficult to know, but given his 6' 5" height & bone structure, he COULD have put on the 20 lbs. in 2 years, at least mostly muscle, naturally. It is not like some baseball player who already has some musle putting on 15 lbs. in the off season.

Now as for the competitive athlete cross-traning...

They MIGHT be able to reach their genetic potential.
A sport with too much aerobics, no.

But boxing is not so haveily aerobic for most that they could not at least approach their potential. Though it is more challenging, & you must keep the calories up.

How active, not just anaerobic spurts, but long aerobic ones, are most HWs? It varies.

Hugeboned guys will have relatively big waists even pretty lean, yep.

Now those identical twins...Use the calculator I gave, enter variables, & you will see that the AVERAGE guy (5' 10", 7" wrist, 8.75 ankle) at a LOW 8-10% body fat can reach just over 17" biceps. So your leaner twins either have a pretty big structure-not enormous but more than average-OR I think many define creatine as natural.

I do not. Naturally occurring in the body & in diet, yes. But the quantities folks can take unlike protein powder far exceed that, & it adds water/bulk to the muscles & extends the ATP anaerobic cycloe. More fluid even in the muscle makes you stronger, eventually larger...

Yes Holyfield & also Tyson looked over 16", even considering they were lean.

I am not too far from my 19" peak. But that was with I would say approaching 30% bodyfat! Lean that would be under 18".

And definition can be misleading. Even at a 41" waist, I could see some of my assymetrical abs, at least in 1/2 way decent light, marginally more if I flexed. Some not even overweight you can see no stomach definition! Whether due to tons of sit ups as a kid, &/or just the way fat is distributed subcutaneously. I have a frienemy (sic) who is not strong, mid 50's a bit of a stomach, must be over 20% body fat-but clearly visible biceps veins. When usually you must be at least a bit lean to have this.

So someone like Bruno may not have been quite as lean as he appeared.

 

Liston at his best could probably knockout or at least knockdown any heavyweight in any era. I'm not sure who I'd pick between Tyson and George, but Sonny's power trumps both of them I'd say. Holyfield has a good Jaw, and has good enough boxing skills to frustrate Sonny but he might get bullied by that jab. Considering Holyfield makes it to the 12th round he might be in trouble if he was knocked down a few times. If Liston drops him 1-2 times in the fight it might be the difference in the scorecards. If Evander justbleeds with him he's in for a bad night I'd say. That is IF Sonny takes the fight seriously. Holyfield may be able to break him down eventually but if we are talking both at 100 percent best I'd take sonny by tKO 10th to 14th round.

 

Entaowed, I agree that definition is somewhat misleading when we talk about bodyfat%.

Seems like you like powerlifting too, don't you?:good

To conclude our discussion, I will try to find real HW big boned guys, real freaks of nature. They are Primo Carnera, Abe Athell, Sonny Liston I believe. Valuev too, though he has skinny arms, but his bones are the biggest in boxing, and his headbones especially.

 

Huh, you mean Abe Simon, right? Googling "Abe Athell, Boxer" only gets this thread as a relevant reference.

Yes, yet my best fairly recent lifts would get me only exactly am 1100 power-lifting total. I so not use wraps or belts. Just 5-6% more at my peak...
But it is fun. Like trying swimming underwater a few daaaaze recently. My best run was just over 120'. But Navy Seals do 150' just to pass the entrance exam, & only push off wall on the way back...To do this I would need to lose some body fat & get into real aerobic condition I imagine...

 

Yea, Abe Simon, of course:yep