Liston versus Holmes

No, but they had the power and heart.

 

Very, very close. Holmes' greater heart sees him through to a decision victory. The record shows how Liston, for all his amazing tools, folded when losing at the championship level. Besides, he was not fast enough to catch Holmes the required several times for a KO win. Holmes, on the other hand, had the skills to survive and win over a rough-and-tumble 15 rounds, if Liston does not quit first.

 

Earnie Shavers didn't even know how to set up punches and he was slow. Liston's jab made it easy to set up right hands and was a million times better than Snipes or Shavers at landing big punches.

 

Larry was coming off an 18 month layoff against Tyson, a period of time which began with him essentially in retirement. On the other hand, Liston had been active leading up to the Martin loss, and had failed to put Henry Clark down and out a year and a half earlier, despite nailing him with solid shots. (If Clark had boxed smartly, he would have beaten Liston. Sonny was huffing and puffing when the referee stopped it in his favor prematurely.)

A peak Liston also displayed problems finishing off Bert Whitehurst in their rematch. Sonny clobbered Whitehurst at the outset of round nine, but failed to get him out in nearly three minutes of action. When I look at Liston/Whitehurst II, and then compare it to Holmes/Shavers I (because they were about the same age for those bouts), I simply don't see how Liston could have pulled it off over Larry.

Snipes tore after Holmes like a bat out of hell after ambushing him, yet actually lost the remainder of that round, over two and a half minutes in which to finish Larry off, as fast and well-conditioned as Snipes was. Even against Tyson, an aged and extremely rusty Holmes remained on his feet for over 45 seconds before he was finally dropped for the third time, and Larry very nearly got through that fourth round with a peak Tyson. In top form, 45 seconds would be more than enough time for Holmes to recover from being stunned.

For over three rounds, even a badly overmatched Billy McMurray was able to outmanuever and outjab Liston. Whitehurst was able to elude the jab of a young Sonny, and the jab of an experienced Liston could also be slipped.

Holmes was on his toes against Tyson only at the beginning of round four, but that was enough to demonstrate how the Holmes of the first Shavers fight would have outboxed peak Tyson over 15.

Liston's jab would have been a terrific weapon to neutralize the physical strength of musclemen like Jeffries and Foreman, but a faster and more defensively skilled stylist could evade it without too much difficulty. For as long as it lasted, McMurray didn't really give Sonny a chance to bring his body attack into play, and Liston was only able to use it briefly against a blinded challenger when he lost the title. It wouldn't have been much of a factor against Holmes.

Sonny's patience might also prove a liability with a boxer whose approach was predicated on scoring points. Larry's stoppage wins usually came about as a desirable by-product of outboxing his opponents.

Could Larry stop Liston? I don't know that he had the firepower necessary to force a stoppage, but he certainly could have made Sonny quit out of frustration. He may very possibly have been able to outjab Liston as badly as Tunney outjabbed Gibbons.

While Shavers didn't have Sonny's boxing skills, Liston didn't have Earnie's handspeed either (at least not in my estimation). His right wouldn't be fast enough to solidly strike Larry with any regularity.

My best guess is that Holmes would introduce Liston to a 15 round decision loss, but only if Sonny's willing to stick around long enough to sustain it. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a French exit before the time limit expired though.

 

Bottom line tho, this was VERY old and WAY past it Liston, just like the other scenario's mentioned. Impartial debate should be ignoring these stages.

Pro Liston viewers will look at Snipes and Weaver and feel confident the other way too.

Some points, Snipes wasn't a massive hitter, wasn't a great fighter and was quite green. Kudo's to Larry's awesome heart and recupe but Snipes ain't no Liston that's for sure.

Holmes UD is my pick too, but it's a tight one to call.

Liston's jab was proven over time and seemed quite handy vs the ultra speedy Patterson. The jabbing match would have been fascinating IMO.

I'd hardly call Shavers fast or compact, some of his right hands come from a different postcode. Liston put punches togather far better and was far superior to Shavers timing wise. Weaver's hardly fast or uniquely gifted and was green at the time but he sure got his licks in.

I'd say the punters would be on the Holmes UD too.

 

All right then, fair enough.

Granted, the fact that Holmes didn't provide rematches is probably the biggest chink in his resume. Having expressed that, I would suggest that Sonny's inability to take out Whitehurst in a return go is perhaps more significant. This was his first opponent to last the ten round distance, so I'd expect Liston to improve considerably on his previous showing. While he did drop Whitehurst, and had him climbing back through the ropes from outside the ring as time expired, he didn't improve in the rematch as much as might be expected. Maybe Whitehurst was merely to Liston what Lowry was to Marciano, or Chaplin was to Page. In any event, Weaver was no come from behind victory for Holmes, and he won it with a single uppercut.

Larry's one noteworthy rematch was against Shavers, and while Earnie dumped Holmes on his back the second time around, he was otherwise shut out again, and failed to last the distance.

No, Snipes certainly wasn't Liston, and Holmes would be prepared accordingly. Even the lightest hitters can turn one over on occasion, and Renaldo produced the punch of a lifetime. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't Lennox Lewis or Big John Tate he was challenging.

Mr. Snipes was supposed to be an easy homecoming title defense, a challenger who hadn't displayed the ability to break an eggshell in any of his televised appearances prior to that. Lennox Lewis became a former champion twice because of such a surprising missile. Much of Larry's title reign is a story of upsets which should have happened but didn't. It wasn't simply heart and recuperative powers which carried him, but tremendous intelligence, resourcefulness and adaptability to unexpected circumstances which set him apart from many champions.

The puncher's chance is always implicit in such a contest, so Larry would remain vigilant. His focus was so acute in the first Shavers match that the few momentary lapses in concentration he did have were glaring. But he zoned out far less than most would have.

While I'm not sure I buy Ali's claim that Floyd would have beaten Sonny if he'd used the same tactics with Liston that he employed against Chuvalo, the fact remains that Patterson did not perform intelligently in either bout, and would have been far more effective moving laterally. Floyd's approach to Liston largely negated his speed advantage. (A shot version of Frazier boxed far more intelligently in his return with a dethroned and vexed Foreman, hungry for redemption.)

No, but Shavers did have underrated handspeed, and an excellent reach. Like Snipes, Weaver had the element of surprise on his side, yet it wasn't enough, and he later demonstrated what kind of punch Holmes had withstood against Tate, Coetzee and Carl Williams. I don't know that I'd describe Weaver as green at the time he challenged Holmes. He'd been in against the Bobick brothers for extended matches, had gone 12 rounds in a losing effort against Leroy Jones, and went 21 total rounds with Stan Ward (avenging a decision loss with a nine round kayo). He'd also knocked out dangerous up and comer Mercado, so Hercules did have a variety of experience against accomplished world class amateurs, large skillful boxers, and a deadly slugger in Mercado. Weaver had more professional experience than Witherspoon, Williams, Marvis Frazier, Leon Spinks, or a number of other HW Title challengers.

As always, you've provided thoughtful and challenging commentary here. The final thing I'd like to point out is that Larry dealt pretty effectively with huge punchers throughout his career. (His rusty showing against Tyson is a noteworthy exception, but even then, Holmes lasted longer than 22 of Tyson's opponents up to that time, and he was just five seconds away from escaping out of round four. This against one of the fastest starting HW Champions of all time, when he was peaking.) When fully prepared against a heavy bomber, Larry was extremely difficult to deal with. (My apologies if this post seems somewhat distracted, but there's been a very loud and damaging vehicle collision outside from where I'm typing. There don't appear to be any injuries, but I think the cars will be scrapped.)

 

I'd hardly use it to judge him so heavily tho. As you mention, at least he gave rematches, we can only guess how Larry would have went in them. A small point, there was only 6 months and 5 rounds between fights for Sonny, he was essentially the same fighter, and tho vs crap Whitehurst wasn't stopped for nearly 3 years after. Sometimes guys don't go as well vs our expectation, it can be style or many other things. I must rewatch the fight.

Lets not fob off this one, Weaver gave Larry kittens. Holmes was ahead by a couple of points but this was one hell of a battle with Weaver at some stages looking a good chance of emerging victorious. It was commonly reported Larry was saved from further drama by the uppercut, that's how the fight was sitting.

Holmes was also a bee's dick off losing by stoppage, tho he was masterful either side of it. Earnie was closer to beating Holmes than he was against numerous much lesser fighters.

Snipes wouldn't have been around long enough to land it vs Lewis and peak Holmes was caught sight unseen i reckon, something peak Lewis would not have been IMO. Even so there's no absolute guarantee this punch drops either, it was a combination of circumstances.

Fair post. To expand Lewis first time out had some serious technical issues and the second was again a combination of factors for which Lewis paid the price, then returned with interest. He came back to prove it a fluke that was never going to happen with him at 100%. Larry was very close to these scenario's, it can't be denied. As you say, a combination of great things got him thru, quite a few times. He was certainly the goods when hurt and under pressure, but detractors will say look at who he was actually under pressure against.

Masterful boxing displays, but other fighters no-where near as great as Holmes took Shavers out or beat him with ease. Shavers isn't hard to outbox for top flight heavyweights.

Lets be honest, Patterson was never ever going to blow wind up Sonny's arse. You're bring in many what if's and stretching real hard to take a little from Liston. What if Shavers got his hands moving and pressured Holmes a bit more after the KD, what if Snipes attacked with more intelligence? What if Witherspoon didn't dance late and put heavy pressure on? Come on, Floyd absolutely decimated Patterson not once, but twice. I am surprised you could question such compelling performances.

Many would say Earnie was basically a clubfighter with a massive punch that brought him up the scale a little.

Nobodies questioning Larry's chin, but Weaver ain't no Liston.

Fair post, i like Weaver. He did however lack that something, was it inner fire at times? Self belief? Hindsight makes him a good win, tho at the time he was considered a B grader.

A pleasure chatting mate, you're like a breath of fresh air. I'm not actually opposed to your prediction here, just trying to get Sonny a bit of leeway.

There'in lay the $10 000 000 question. Larry was proven against big punchers but not big punchers with the greatness of Liston, which makes this an open bout.

You and i are both above attacking shot or way past it fighters. You don't have to defend Holmes vs Tyson because quite frankly i don't hold it against him one iota. We don't need to talk Tyson and Martin, we are talking peak.

Yes, as said above, Liston is another level altogether.

Again, if a gun was to my head i'd take Larry via decision, but there are enough questions of Holmes vs much better opposition than he actually fought to make this fight very defendable from Liston's perspective. A great matchup.

 

Holmes, by very close UD. This would be a great matchup, Liston would be a threat right 'till the last bell.

 

That thread was really interesting.

 

Holmes didn't have one legendary physical attribute like Liston's punching power. His speed was very good, sometimes looked great, but nothing legendary. Power, very good, but not great. Chin, excellent but he could be hurt pretty seriously, here and there. Recovery, stamina, terrific, but not an over-the-top unbelievable thing. But people get easily awed by single standout attributes and overrate the total package based on them. The real standout as a total package would be Larry, here. And he'd likely win.

He had everything to draw on physically and mentally to weather Liston's power when it got to him and outdo him, even if he had to draw on everything he had. He could fight inside, mid-range, outside, clean or dirty, whatever it took. And Liston never came into contact with someone who was as good a total package as Larry without folding. Larry came across what I'd consider a better total package than Liston in Holyfield when he himself was an old guy and still put on a good and impressive account of himself. Might Liston stop him? Yeah, a puncher's chance for a legendary puncher who was fairly smart too? Sure. But I certainly wouldn't favour him. Liston by UD, or late stoppage, for me. Pick, pick, pick, pick him apart.

 

I think Holmes could control pockets of the fight with his boxing skills, height and range. I believe Liston would make Larry pay a toll even in the rounds Holmes won.

Larry Holmes might land his jab more often but Liston would be stuffing his jab in Holmes face as well and it carried alot of force. Sonny`s lefthook was kind of quick and Holmes had a tendency to fall asleep over the course of a long fight.

I dont think he could afford to do this against a banger and a finisher like Sonny Liston.

Id take Liston by TKO 9-11 rounds.

 

Holmes by 11th round TKO........ Liston is powerful and game, but eats too many Holmes jabs and crisp rights and becomes fatigued / bloodied... Liston is on his feet when the ref steps in......

NOTE:

Liston was a bully who liked to have it his way in the ring. When matched with a man of superior skill and speed, Liston usually caved in...
bbb:good

Holmes sweet Holmes.

MR.BILL:hat

 

Holmes never fought the third of a fighter the caliber of Sonny Liston (except Mike Tyson whom he got KO'd brutally).

 

holmes by TKO

 

Holmes in his prime doesn't lose to a shorter man of great strength and power who was also slower and more ponderous.... Liston was skilled, but Holmes' speed and savvy would be the key to beat Liston.... Holmes by late rds TKO.....

MR.BILL