Liston vs Ali 2, Did Ali try to buy Liston recovery time?

You’re probably familiar with all or most but for the sake of it I will list one by one.

Cooper I: It’s too much of a stretch to say Ali was likely to be knocked out if matters proceeded fairly at the end of round four, but the realistic possibility was erased by cheating in Ali’s corner. Not a speculative one this, a clear case.

Liston I: This is one you have to give Ali the benefit of the doubt, insofar as there is simply no strong evidence of a fix. Personally I have never been quite fully willing to accept you can have that result vs Cooper & then go & beat Liston in your very next fight, but I suppose stranger things have happened. As with their second fight though, all sorts of rumours swirl, even as recently as two years ago there was an article published going to some lengths to validate the fix was in. Jerry Izenberg in one instance inadvertently helps this case while trying to defend the legitimacy of the fight, claiming Liston feigned his shoulder injury to explain away the loss.

Liston II: I think most would agree Ali can’t be knocked for this directly but again, we have FBI, NOI & Mafia entanglements allegedly swirling around the fight - to say nothing of what we saw in the ring.

Frazier II: Here’s one of those clear cases again, where Ali cannot be given the benefit of the doubt. Unable to defeat Frazier legally in their first fight (though it was mighty close on my card), Ali smartly, but blatantly, cheats his way to success with an unforgivable amount of holding & pulling on the head. He didn’t need a warning. He didn’t need a point deduction. It was nothing short of disqualifiable. & it won’t be the last we see of it in Ali’s career.

Foreman: You have to give Ali the win here. Nobody has any solid proof of conspiracy. Would anybody really be surprised if something was going on, though? In one of the most corrupt places on Earth, involving one of the most corrupt sports on Earth, with a nation behind one fighter? Loose ropes aside for a minute, Dick Saddler joining Ali’s team after the fight - & Ali telling Foreman at one stage he would only grant a rematch if Foreman re-hired Saddler, is suspect.

Frazier III: As with the second fight, Ali should, by the rules of the sport, have been kicked out of the ring. We know that was never going to happen in the real world though, & Ali knew it, too. Not even a point deduction, & probably not even a warning, either.

Norton III: Ali said himself he lost - a very unusual statement from such a fighter. Besides that, we have the full fight. Nobody can score that match for Ali in my opinion. There was an industry around the man to be maintained, though.

Spinks I & II: Here, I make an exception to the rule so far. There isn’t conclusive evidence to say Ali arranged this to become the first three-time champion (still the only one in a lineal sense), but I outright cannot believe these fights were on the level. It is too far into the realm of absurdity. I give him no credit for being a three-time champion, & the fact it is rarely discussed among his achievements tells me even believers aren’t impressed. Ali was not above a con.

 

Not my point of contention. Do you think Dundee was trying for six seconds? It shows his corner were not above illegal conduct.

 

Listening to the audio recording of the fight with a stopwatch in hand, the truth emerges.

The gap between rounds one and two was exactly one minute.

The gap between rounds two and three was, again, exactly one minute.


Same again for rounds three and four.

But the gap between rounds four and five - the moment of the torn glove incident - was, precisely, one minute and six seconds.

In other words, only six seconds more than all the other intervals.

But as it was, a myth was born that Dundee had bought Ali minutes of extra time to recover.



"It's staggering how many people made mistakes writing about this. It's just rubbish," says Bunce.

"Sir Henry Cooper insisted it was minutes, most people say it was. But the gloves, they were never taken off. Dundee worked the tear, but by modern standards it was not a delay."

Counting down the Cooper-Ali fight - BBC News

Conjecture

Holding only results in disqualification if the fighter hits and holds.

Conjecture (REDUX)

The referee literally warned him not to held and for the most part Ali didn't. There's holding in every fight.

It was a hotly contested decision. Bud Schuyler (AP) scored it for Ali.

"It’s impossible to score a fight in which you already know the result," he said.

For the record, Schuyler scored the bout 9-6 Ali, and he did so without an ounce of doubt or regret.



"I don’t know what the controversy was about because I couldn’t see any," he declared. "Ali took the fight and Norton didn’t. Close? Yes. But close doesn’t count except in quakes. I’ve never, ever thought over the years that Norton might have won the fight. From where I sat, Ali dictated the pace with his jab and right hand. It was an even fight after eight rounds and then Ali took charge. Norton came forward, but you don’t get points just for coming forward. It was Ali’s fight and I have no qualms about the decision or the way I scored it."

Ali-Norton III Remembered Through Schuyler's Eyes - Boxing News (*******.com)

Conjecture (REDUX)

 

It’s like I said, it’s been 60 years and people still won’t give Ali his due credit, it all had to be some assortment of nefarious plots, it’s metaphysically impossible that he really was the GOAT.

 

You mean noted Ali hater Jimmy Cannon? Not sure just how much stock I put in his opinion.

I mean, I'm aware of the same rumors, but as stated before, I go by the film and it tells the same story that Marciano told when he was interviewed at the same time as Cannon. Ali turned the shot over at the last moment and got some decent snap on it. Those types of shots can affect opponents if they're out of position.

 

Flash knockdown. He chose not to get up. Smart guy. The only thing he would have got for getting up is getting lumped up.

 

Oh, I'm definitely of the opinion that Liston probably could have gotten up. But, I'm with you that given Ali's success to that point and in their previous contest, and in the minute that precided the KD, it wasn't going to be a pleasant evening for him had the fight continued.

 

I know what literally literally means and he literally had no answer.

 

If I try to rob you for $100, & only make away with $6, does that acquit my character? This was in fairness Dundee & not Ali, but it’s a part of Ali’s career. He probably wasn’t going to lose anyway, but do you really think Dundee was trying for six seconds?

As for your conjecture replies, I acknowledged that in each of those matches & said I give Ali credit because it’s unreasonable not to do so - but that doesn’t mean there isn’t recurring suspicion throughout his career. The one exception is the entire Spinks affair - I can’t bring myself to believe a minute of it, proof or not.

Nobody who is competent (or honest) can score the third fight with Norton for Ali, I won’t even debate that point. Ali didn’t score it for Ali.

 

How did you score it?

 

Agree 100% I think Sonny knew he didn't stand a chance and decided to just stay down and avoid another a$$ whipping. Ali would have given Sonny a WORSE beating than the first fight had it not ended so quickly--he was just too fast and sharp for Liston at this point. (Really, Ali was too fast and sharp for ANYONE back in 1965--just an amazing combination of lightening speed, reflexes, and punches that were a lot more powerful than you realize!!)

 

"I can tell you what happened there. Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but
saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas without being exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can't control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can't tell what a nut is going to do , and Ali is a nut."

-Sonny Liston

Taschen , A Tribute To Muhammad Ali, Page 222.

 

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lol