Liston vs Frazier Prime?

Hmmm.... This could very well end up like Foreman-Frazier.

But then again Frazier has the tools to beat Liston

Hard fight to pick IMO.

 

The pre cocaine, mafia, and middle aged Liston would have KOed Frazier.

 

Frazier loses to Liston, as he probably would have against Ron Lyle and Ernie Shavers.

Joe vs. Puncher = Nightmare for Smoke. Too available.

 

I'm not sure if any heavyweight champion H2H is as mysteriously underrated as Frazier or as H2H mysteriously overrated as Liston or Johnson. These guys get an insane amount of benefit of the doubt action and Frazier doesn't seem to get any.

 

I do give Frazier a whole load of respect but he didn't cope well with punchers.

His best perfromances IMO are Ali 1 (Spectacular), Ellis, Quarry and Foster. Every one of them are boxers/ counter punchers.

His worst? Bonavena, Foreman 1, Foreman 2. All punchers plus he was stunned by Joe Bugner? WTF?

These stats just don't look good if he meets Liston.

Jack Johnson wouldn't beat any of them period - over rated in the extreme. I've yet to see him throw a combination without him falling on his ass or looking like ****.

 

Liston's best win was over a faded former super middleweight. And if you want to take the very green Bonavena Frazier and his being knocked down, let's talk about Sonny getting his broken jaw from a much lesser opponent than Bonavena early in his career. If you want to take Frazier's second loss to George Foreman then you must look at Liston's kayo loss to Martin. Foreman>>>>>>>>Martin. Also, Frazier was blind in one eye, coming off of eye surgery and stupidly smuggled contacts into that second Foreman fight. Frazier's chin was quite good. He didn't have a puncher problem. He had a Foreman problem that first time and a shot problem the second time.

 

Very tough fight to call but, I would lean towards Liston based on record vs punchers...

 

Calling Patterson a super middle is an over statement in the extreme and despite Floyd holding the title it is almost beyond argument that Liston's KO wins over Williams x 2 and Zora Folley (all within 3 rounds) were even more impressive.

Frazier was 32 years old in the second fight with Foreman but I do completely acknowledge the eye damage. Liston was almost 40 against Martin and that's only if you believe his official DOB.

Anyway we'll never know. I pick Liston but it woldn't be without trepidation. Frazier was awesome!

 

You think a factually correct statement ("former supermiddleweight") is an overstatement in the extreme? In 1952 Floyd won the Olympic Middleweight gold medal and turned pro that year. When Floyd had 20 pro fights under his belt in 1955 he weighed in at 168 pounds against Don Grant when the limit was 175. He was not a natural heavyweight and not a big light heavyweight. I'm sorry, I'm dealing in fact on that. While he was similar in height to Liston, we both know there was only one true heavyweight in the ring there and Floyd's equalizing attributes were not what they had been. And, no, I don't consider Williams or Folley to be better wins than Patterson, who was easily the best fighter Liston defeated, even faded. Good wins, sure, but I don't buy that they were better. Sorry.

 

Fraizer, he had great chin which is underated

 

I have Frazier in my top 5 ATG Heavyweights. But Liston is all wrong for him. Liston by KO

 

Mate

You aren't going to tell me one thing about Patterson I don't already know.

He was 17 years old in Helsinki for Christ Sake Is Manny really a flyweight? Was Ali really a light heavyweight? Patterson's body matured into a small heavyweight and by the time he was champion that was his division.

Floyd fought on or around 190lbs against Liston and arguably posted better wins after those defeats than he did as champion. I won't list them all for you because I assume you know what you're talking about. Liston was a bigger man but **** happens at heavyweight. Look at Haye vs. Klitschko.

No more lectures unless you can tell me what Floyd weighed when he was 6 years old in a pee wee tournament if you see that as being relevent.

 

Well, first that wasn't a lecture, that was me stating my case. If it felt like a lecture, Uncle Boxed is sorry. Secondly, don't try and tell me he wasn't a blown up smaller man or make it sound like I was saying he was then CURRENTLY no more than a super middleweight and never filled out from his youth. That wasn't anything close to a point I was trying to make, so we're clear.

Thirdly, no, he didn't arguably have better wins than Moore and Ingo after the Liston fight. You can argue it, but I certainly wouldn't. Fourth, Liston outweighed Patterson by 24 pounds. One was built to be a heavyweight, one was not. Fifth, Liston was 109 years old when he fought Patterson and 270 when he fought Ali. I know, I'm his barber and he told me. Sixth, my original point was not meant to discredit Liston's win but to point out that Liston gets flat-out enormous benefit of the doubt for his career and results and Frazier almost never for his clearly more impressive career.

 

Apology accepted!

You've told me your point was not to make out that Floyd was a super middleweight but you never told me what the point actually was?

Do you want me to go through a list of fights where a 20lb+ weight pool was insignificant when it came to who won? No you don't do you?

You class Floyd's win over a 1099 year old Archie Moore as more impressive than victories over Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo. Laters dude!