Liston vs Frazier

I think Ali said Williams was the 3rd hardest puncher he ever faced. So to dismiss Williams as a walk in the park is a mistake.. People just can't give credit where credit is due so they start to rip on Liston when he was 34 or 35 years old …. Liston went thru Williams and Patterson twice like a Sledgehammer hitting a tack nail … wake up and smell the coffee people because Patterson already saw Liston and knew what was coming, and he got KO'd again in 1

 

The slow motion of Sonny dropping from that anchor punch is a very famous sequence that shows Sonny really was hit hard enough with a speedy punch that discombobulated Liston enough to produce a Momentary flash knockdown.

It’s like Ray Leonard against Wilfredo Benitez. Sometimes a sharp punch right on the button can do that. As it did to Sonny.

Jimmy Lennon would also have went down. I am convinced of that.

 

Maybe that was the same for Sonny. He already saw clay and knew what was coming, and he got kayoed in one round?

There is a big difference between Frazier and Patterson. And Jimmy Ellis showed it.

 

Yup there is a big difference between Frazier and Patterson. And it is a good fight imo. but keep doing your job and bring up Liston at age 34 against an all time athlete 11 years younger than him and the best HW of all time as your benchmark … And the Martin fight as your benchmark as well as you often do

 

But he has to be able to land the punches effectively . Liston wasn't close To Ali in hand or foot speed and reflexes. Even that version of Ali slightly past prime. Right no one ever out muscled Liston, not even Foreman (said so himself) but Liston didn't fight like Foreman. Liston was much more a prototypical boxer-puncher.

 

No I haven’t felt the need to include Martin here.

This is a fight of styles. Two fighters in their prime. Sonny has a real punchers chance I just think Frazier has a better punch- rate and slip ratio. Joe lands more bombs while Sonny gets set.

 

Good post here and a fair analysis ..

 

I will repeat: Williams prime was in a weaker era than Frazier's and yert he never stopped anyone of the calibre of fighter that Frazier did. Punching isnt just about how hard you can hit a punching bag, its about how you deliver those hard punches to targets that are moving and fighting back. I couldnt care less if guys like Shavers and Williams were able to hit a stationary target harder than their contemporaries. They certainly never were able to do it against top competition so the danger their supposed power presents isnt worth the discussion.

As for Frazier crying in pain, he was the first one to the press conference by a long shot. It was Ali who lay in his dressing room unable to come out before being rushed to the hospital. Ali had to hold an impromptu press conference much later. In fact Pepe has none of your hyperbole in his description. In "Come out Smoking" he discusses in detail how Frazier was eager to meet the press afterwards while Ali was rushed to the hospital. How afterwards as the doctor probed his swollen face for broken bones Joe merely asked "can you get me something for the pain" No tears, no blubbering. He was given tablets to decrease swelling and dull the pain and in fact if you look up the tablets he was given, which Pepe described, one was used to treat high blood pressure, what doctors said he was treated at the hospital for. Thats easily verifiable. In fact Pepe mentions how after a 15 minute shower the pain and weariness began to subside. And that hospital stay Ali fans constantly put so much stock in was 10 days, not three weeks. You can also do the math on this and see he wasnt rushed to the hospital near death as the pro-Ali hyperbole would have you believe. The fight was in New York on March 8. Frazier didnt check himself into the hospital until he returned to Philadelphia. He checked himself into the hospital on March 16, 8 days after the fight. He was checked out March 26. 10 Days later. Does that sound like a guy who was rushed to the hospital near death from the Ali fight? In fact if you read the actual events of how that happened Frazier was making an appearance at the local childrens wing of the hospital to display the films of his fight with Ali. He mentioned to the doctor there that he felt a little weak. The doctor checked him out and found his blood pressure was high. They ran some tests and admitted him. The press largely ignored the facts and ran with the idea that he had suffered so much punishment he was admitted to the hospital near death. LOL.

Regardless, Im not sure what the point is. Frazier beating Ali is a much bigger accomplishment than beating either Williams or Liston. Furthermore, Liston was nowhere near as fast as Ali so hes not dishing out the kind of punishment Ali did to Frazier and even then look how many jabs and right hands Ali missed as fast as he was. Its not like Frazier was just there to get hit. People act like Liston was this monster based on his pre championship career but he really only beat three guys that make you stand up and notice: Williams (who was and is always overrated), Folley (who had a glass jaw), and Machen (who despite fighting Liston one handed gave him problems). He knocked out Patterson and the way he did it is a huge achievement but I doubt anyone thinks Patterson would would go the distance with Frazier, or Machen or Folley for that matter. Against Ali Liston was reduced to impotence and while some will jump on the ridiculous bandwagon that Liston was 297 years old when he fought Ali the fact is that he was in his mid thirties (no spring chicken to be sure) but he was fighting a younger, less experienced Ali who didnt sit down on his punches like the more mature version did.

The point is moot because both are dead and even when their careers aligned and the fight could have happened Liston had zero interest in fighting anyone threatening. He chose two of the weakest top ten contenders he could find to fight during his comeback, Clark and Martin. Clark couldnt punch a lick and Martin wasnt even the best HW in his hometown much less the world. Meanwhile Liston was turining down big money offers for bigger names. The idea that he was ever going to fight Frazier in anything but a cash out fight is fantasy.

 

Ali was taken to the hospital for an X-ray to see if he had a broken jaw. He didn't and went back to his hotel, where he held a press conference from his bed the following morning. He didn't even spend the night in the hospital. He was there for a couple hours at most.

And Ali didn't come out of his dressing room because he was getting a blowjob on the dressing room table from Diana Ross, or so said Jerry Perenchio (the copromoter) and Jack Kent Cooke (who owned the Los Angeles Lakers) to writer Mark Kram. Numerous stories have Ross entering the dressing room when everyone was in there and took the ice bag Bundini had on Ali's jaw and put it to his face and whispered in Ali's ear. Ali asked for everyone to leave, so he could get dressed to go to the hospital (wink wink ... because he was naked in front of them all the time). Cooke and Perenchio told Kram they walked into the dressing room anyway and Ali was on the rubbing table and Ross had her head in his crotch, her arms around his waist. And their jaws dropped.

So, Ali wasn't feeling "THAT" bad afterword. Or, maybe she was just helping him with his sore hips. He took a lot of shots on the hips. (LOL)

You gotta love the 70s. "Ain't No Mountain High Enough."

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Thanks for the lesson on punching .Now tell me how many boxing matches you've had?
Ali wasn't,"rushed to the hospital ,"he was taken there to determine if his jaw was broken.He left after 2 hours.

 

Bull****. Everyone there said she was crying in his lap.

 

More than you, now disprove anything I said above. Didnt think so. NEXT!

 

Perfectly reasonable opinion. When you look at it, Frazier was always the better fighter. And more proven.

Sonny had only proven to be the worlds best by the Patterson wins but he soon ran out of desire. And as you say, there was not so much more to go on before that.

 

I wasn't referring to Come Out Smoking to start with. 30fights? I've already shown he wasn't rushed to Flower First Avenue Hospital and he was there just under 2 hours. I never said or implied Frazier was rushed anywhere,he briefly attended his victory party as everyone knows.

 

Again, everyone saw her in the dressing room before it was cleared.

Perenchio and Cooke walked in on them alone. She was on her knees. Arms around his waist. Face in his crotch. A woman's eyes also water when she deepthroats a guy,because of a lack of oxygen. It's a natural response to a brief lack of oxygen. (Shouldn't you know this?)

Nevermind. I don't want to know. Back on ignore.

Just thought it was a funny anecdote, Ali being the well known sex addict that he was.

Back to the insults and screaming.