Liston vs Frazier

You seem to put a lot of more stock on chins than in defence.

I certainly don’t think there is evidence Liston has a greater chin than Frazier. Ali, Martin And Marshall have been credited as knocking Sonny over. Would you say those guys necessarily deck Frazier?

Foreman and Bonavena decked Frazier. Two guys capable of decking Sonny too.

If it is only a question of chin I don’t think Sonny is bulletproof at championship level.

 

Marshall never floored Liston. I don't believe the Ali ko either.

 

For some reason people only want easy answers.

Foreman equals Liston so Frazier equals Patterson. Yawn.

 

He decked Sonny legitimately though. And film proves it.

 

If you say so.

 

Maybe people are picking Liston because he hit like a train,had a telephone pole of a jab,two handed power and, when prime a great chin?
If Liston was picking the style he would most want to avoid I think he would opt for a fast stepping ,elusive boxer.
The most likely style for him to look good against ,a short swarmer.

 

Not necessarily. A high energy swarmer who hits as hard as Frazier did, who shortens the distance and smothers leverage like that can really effect somebody like Sonny who needs to get set to lead off.

 

It is more the film that says so rather than me.

 

I think the opposite, look where Ali's back foot is.

 

Frazier's power isn't in Liston's league. Sonny was good at distance and murder up close.

 

Yes he was. That’s a fair interpretation. But generally Sonny was beating on guys twenty pounds lighter than he was and not necessarily world level men coming forward with Frazier’s kind of Arsenal.

Would Frazier freeze? I don’t think so.

 

The thing to watch is Sonnys head rotation and knee spasm. There is a genuine reaction going on.

 

Sonny's killer rep is based upon wins over Patterson (a guy who detractors say had the worst chin in HW championship history. You cant have it both ways), Folley (who had a glass jaw) and Machen, two guys who were patient to the point of timidity, and Williams who has exactly zero bonafides at HW to give him the killer rep Liston fans foist upon him and who folded the instant he saw Liston wasnt. None of those guys are in Frazier's league. Period. None at any point in their career. You can pretend that because Liston beat Williams he had an iron jaw but again, what top ten contender did Williams ever stop much less beat to show how dangerous he was? The idea that Sonny isnt an overblown front runner is laid on a foundation of sand. Machen and Folley had both been knocked out and beaten conclusively before Liston got to them and Williams' resume is so ridiculously thin he wouldnt even be taken seriously today. The two best guys he fought prior to Liston were Dick Richardson and his knockout loss to Satterfield who weighed just over 175 when he knocked Williams dead leaving him flat on his back and completely unconscious for a full minute. So because Liston beat those guys (and he didnt exactly look like a killer against one handed Machen) Im supposed to believe he blows away a prime Joe Frazier, or worse, that the version of Liston who was dodging fights with anyone with a pulse and got knocked out cold himself by Leotis Martin would have beaten Frazier? No. Watch the look on Liston's face in the early rounds against Williams, against Ali, against Martin. When someone is firing back on him hes a scared little boy. Hes the epitome of a bully. Frazier would be firing on him and a lot more and at a faster pace than anybody he fought in his entire career. Frazier would make Liston quit and Liston's fans would be looking for excuses just like they do about all of his other problems in and out of the ring. "He was 98 years old. He was being threatened by the black muslims. The mob told him to lay down." Funny, for all the talk about Sonny taking a dive to Ali he was actually up on his feet and fighting when WALCOTT stopped the fight, not Sonny. Thats the big gaping hole in the story that LISTON took a dive. Hard to throw a fight when youve gotten up and are trading punches while the referee stops it...

 

Hi all, a very interesting dream matchup, one I have changed my mind about a few times.

I used to think Liston would snuff Frazier but a few points made here are similar to my own thoughts and make me struggle a bit to pick a winner.

Ali did have Liston doing the chicken dance in round three of their first fight so Sonny wasn’t impossible to hurt.
Liston quit against Ali in Miami. Frazier on the other hand never quit in his life.

Sonny lacked the big height advantage that Foreman and Ali had over Frazier too. I also believe Sonny was slower on his feet than Foreman who was surprisingly quick on his feet unlike with his hands.

Ali always had trouble hitting Frazier with his jab and Liston absolutely relied on landing his jab to get into range and set up his attacks. Frazier is no Floyd Patterson as far as his infighting ability, strength and durability go so Sonny wouldn’t be able to simply get close to Joe and overwhelm him like he did Patterson

Joe by unanimous but close decision after being dropped and hurt early by Liston.

Cheers All.

 

You conveniently forgot to mention the other guy who knocked down Frazier. Wonder why.