Liston vs Louis, prime for prime

Liston was actually 2lbs heavier than Williams in the 1st fight ,Williams was only 3lbs heavier than Liston in the 2nd ,of course Williams was a couple of inches taller.Patterson weighed 194 1/2for the 2nd Liston fight which is more than Dempsey or Marciano ever weighed.Liston gets the knock for koing Floyd ,a smaller man ,yet Jeffries gets lauded for stopping a 40year old super middle weight.Strange.

 

A tiny cruiserweight is 6' 196lb of chizzled muscle?

 

I don't rank Jeffries very highly.


Anyway, almost all of Liston's ranked opponents were under 210lbs , whereas Louis had B. Baer, M. Baer, Galento, Simon, etc.

 

Valdez was one or two fights away from retirement. That leaves only DeJohn and Williams. Tiny amount of punchers in comparison to Louis'.

Oh, and didn't you think Martin was such a big puncher? Because he KO'd Liston with one punch. Louis got up against Marciano, who is a far, far superior puncher.

 

For the last time..........Valdez coming into 1959 was the # 2 thats right TWO rated heavyweight contender in the world. Just one year prior to the liston fight Valdez knocked out in contender harold carter in what the new york times described "devastating fashion". He also flattened contender pat mcmutry in ONE round and beat other ranked young contenders like dejohn TWICE and bethea. In fact Valdez's one round destruction of young ranked contenter pat mcmutry 8 months prior to the liston fight was regarded as one of the most devastating destructions of the year. Power is the last thing to go so at 34 its reasonable to assume going by papers reports and his record that valdez was still one of the divisions most dangerous punchers plus he was big shouldered 6'3 212lb, and Valdez still knocked out brian london a year after fighting sonny. Walcott was one or two fights away from retirment when he took on marciano, does that mean he still couldnt fight?

Here is an exact quote from Nino Valdez "I could still hit very hard when I fought Sonny Liston".

Once again, Nino Valdez TWICE beat mike dejohn right around the time valdez took on sonny. So how does that make dejohn better than valdez if even 33 year old valdez was still beating him? Valdez knocked out mcmutry carter and summerlin months before taking on liston. Valdez was 6'3 212lb and we all know POWER IS THE LAST THING TO LEAVE A FIGHTER, so why would you include dejohn and not valdez? Valdez even in the late 1950s would have been one of the most dangerous punchers louis would have faced. None of the other punchers louis faced had a jab like valdez's. Louis arguebably going by a few paper reports I have avoided fighting the black punchers of his day like harry bobo lem franklin tiger jack fox and later on elmer ray and lee Q Murray

Also Patterson is a puncher too, why leave him off the list? how bout henry clark or amos johnson??? you going to disregard the punchers he fought in the late 1960s?

 

Marciano knocked louis out COLD too, just like martin did to liston. Leotis martin is a big puncher, my father told me about the time he brutalized sonny banks killing him. scary stuff.

Dont forget Max Schmeling knocked Joe Louis out, Sonny never had something like this happen to him, even early in his career. Louis had a very good chin, but it was not better than sonny's IMO. were strictly talking chins here.

173lb Billy Conn shook louis horribly knocking him down if louis didnt grab on too conn. You see Billy Conn shaking up liston this badly when liston was in his peak years?

 

agreed.

Liston never faced anyone as sharp with as much power as Louis. The only guy who came close in the first department was Clay. No one he faced came remotely close in the second.

 

Louis never faced anyone with the combination of size, jab, strength skill and punching power of sonny liston.

 

That #2 ranking was before he got knocked out by one journeyman and lost by decision to another, right before losing to Liston. That should tell you how much he had left. Sometimes you can age overnight.

Oh, well that proves it then.

Patterson hardly ever scored a KO before the 5th round and never over anyone 200+lbs of note. Not a big puncher and unproven against real heavyweights.

 

Yeah, Liston was knocked out by Martin and Martin was a big puncher.
Why was Martin a big puncher? Because he knocked out Liston. :nut


And no, Liston did not have anything like Schmeling happen to him early in his career. Instead, he lost to a journeyman lightheavyweight and got knocked down by him too.

 

Louis

 

Cleveland Williams was a machine when Liston faced him. Game, aggressive, confident, superb physical tools. I have no problem with Liston's opposition, and he blazed a trail through them.

Against the Bomber its a terrific match-up though. Over 10 fights, it might be one of those 5 each affairs.

Over 1 fight, and if forced to pick, I am going for Liston by KO after several scary moments of his own. I think he is just as robust as Louis in the chin department, moreso in the body, and while slower has enough fire power and physicality to make up for it.

 

A machine designed for mediocrity?

Who would have thunk it was worth building?